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Post by Alex ST on Jun 24, 2016 23:22:07 GMT -5
First, I'm exhausted. Second, I've had two glasses of wine. I'm in my right head, but I'm not necessarily as eloquent as I'd like to be.
In looking at the discussions so far I wanted to give some thoughts of game design as a concept that I think we should bear in mind as we design this larp. "Game space" refers not to the physical space of a game (although it can mean that) but rather all the different parts of a game that are considered playing the game. For example, if I'm running a PC in a D&D game then clearly the parts of the game where we sit around the table describing character actions and rolling dice to determine the results of those actions is playing the game, but what else counts? Would writing up the character sheet count? What about character research? Talking to the GM between game sessions? There are no right or wrong answers to this but they all bear thinking about.
Another example would be Warhammer 40,000. This is a game notorious for expanding game space to include things that are not about actively playing in the game but instead are about participating in it, such as painting miniatures. In M:tG, deck construction is part of game space, to the point that draft - a game about building the deck - becomes it's own way of playing. The point is that a lot of things that people don't consider "play" can be part of playing the game for many people. As GMs, we need to decide what parts of the game we want to encourage and which ones we want to support. Things that I or others consider to be playing the game in the current larp include:
- Character interaction
- Running a character through mechanical challenges, including but not limited to combat
- Setting immersion
- Online roleplaying
- Building characters
- Writing fiction
- Designing and wearing costumes
- Exploring the setting
- Telling a story
- Managing clan resources
- Engaging in map movement (war gaming)
This is not an arbitrary philosophical discussion. For example, in HoR, character fictions were the primary way you got your character stuff (for example, I got Raiken's earthen blade by writing a fiction and received a 5 pt. sacred weapon essentially for free). This meant that the best writers had the best stuff - good for me but not good for bad writers - but it also meant the campaign accrued an extraordinary amount of fictions (some quite well-written). Conversely, in the current EH game, online roleplaying is something that players are permitted to do but receive no mechanical recognition of, often despite dozens of hours some players put in.
What do we want to allow, what do we want to encourage, and what do we want to incentivize? Getting a clearer sense of how we want this game to be played will make a lot of our discussions go a lot smoother.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 25, 2016 7:04:41 GMT -5
After reading through your post Alex the core of this discussion to me feels like "Should we reward players for their effort outside of standard game time? If so, for doing what, and how?" This I am not opposed to and literally the first thing that came to my mind was a form of AP system. Depending on what it is that the players do, the staff can award AP based off of a predetermined system.
Example:
Peter, Cain, and Melissa want to do a forum thread together but also want it to become canonical. To do so they submit a request to Staff to have their thread reviewed and audited. When the thread is completed staff audit it. Honor, Glory, and Status Gains/Losses occur via staff how they see fit based upon the RP. Draws are done if necessary. AP is then awarded to the involved players based upon whatever predetermined chart we have. This only needs the attention of a minimum of 1 staff member, never more unless another staff member is bored.
Also I just realized that two of you don't know what I'm referring to when I say an AP system. Basically it's just arbitrary points that you can redeem for in-game effects/things/whatever.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 25, 2016 8:09:26 GMT -5
That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm not asking should we reward players for efforts outside of standard game time but rather what elements do we consider to be a standard part of the game.
I think this is very important to decide on before game. For example, if clan resources and map movement are an integral part of the game players like Melissa who have no interest in such things (and aren't very good at them) will be penalized, whereas if fiction writing becomes an important part of the game then players who aren't accomplished writers will be penalized.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 25, 2016 8:19:42 GMT -5
I don't want to REQUIRE a costume requirement, but I do want there to be an incentive for wearing a costume, if even a mental one. I do like the 'Must Cover the Torso Requirement' for EH, but other than that I don't need much. Costumes just help reinforce immersion.
Online RP - If someone is willing to Vet Scenes for honor and glory, I'm okay with that. Aside from that, I'm not a big fan of doling out mechanical rewards for it, but the RP should certainly be a consideration as PC's try and pursue their other goals.
Building a Character - I had the idea of giving players the options of answering the 20 questions in the core book that are associated with character creation to gain up to additional 20xp (1 per question) at character start. People can choose not to as they wish, and so can't call foul if someone else starts with more XP because they put in the work. That way, the storytelling of their character BEGINS at creation, and it gives the staff a strong foundation to work with while looking at personal plot.
Physreps/Rp for Artisans and Crafters - Again, don't think we should require them - but reward them somehow. Want to be a Kakita Artisan who's a painter? Great! You'll get all of the normal benefits of being a Kakita Artisan for taking the school. But if you put the effort into a painting (It doesn't have to be a GOOD one), you should get a free raise or something to that effect for the OOC effort you brought in bringing the art and poetry to the game. As a poet, you can CHOOSE to say 'I recite a poem about XXX' and do a roll. But actually spending some time - even if you're struggling through it, will net you bonus...
Actually, scratch that - make RP and physreps requirements. They don't have to be masterpieces. Your paintings can be a bunch of stick-figures. You can recite very simple (though I encourage original) poetry - nothing complex.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 25, 2016 8:48:40 GMT -5
I see what you are trying to get at but I am extrapolating slightly further beyond it. You want us to figure out which avenues we as staff would be willing to moderate that allows current players that are just bad at the map game and other aspects of the game feel like they can participate more heavily in the game.
When I originally spoke to the EH staff about map game balance it was supposed to be Map Game vs Courts, which has failed spectacularly. The map is the end all be all in EH and the clans that don't have competent map game players fall apart (perfect example is how I used the Lion to dominate the Crane). I am hoping to pull the maps power back a decent chunk by having MUCH SMALLER numbers when it comes to units as well as resources in general. As for things to balance it I can see forum RP being a method. I can also see good costuming being a method as well. My proposal was a system to help standardize rewards for more arbitrary Game Spaces that don't have clear mechanical bonuses.
You stated the question of what do we consider Game Spaces because of penalty to those who are bad at the majority, my response is how we reward the players that use the Game Spaces we decide to choose, because in essence there is no point in having more Game Space if there is no reward for those that would use them.
Game Spaces I like
- Costuming
- Audited Forum Threads
- Map Game
- At Session Mods
- Creating Game Zones/Expanding the Game World (Example: My Ancestor Temple in EH)
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Post by Jim ST on Jun 27, 2016 9:46:39 GMT -5
Some thoughts on this:
1) Not receiving a reward that another player receives is NOT a punishment but is often perceived to be so. "You rewarded X for his [costume/forum post/map skills], but I got nothing for my [whatever]. Thus I've been punished." The answer to this is to either reward everything equally or reshape player expectations so they don't see non-receipt of reward as punishment.
2) Players (and people) will do what they are incentivized to do. As STs, we control incentives. We need to decide what we want to incentivize and what the incentives will be. The standard mechanical LARP incentives are: XP, Glory, Status and Koku. Others include ST Attention, Spotlight at Game, Access to Restricted Things.
3) For some players, doing things they like to do is its own reward. People who enjoy costuming, Forum posting, etc. will do so whether or not we incentivize it. This does not mean, however, that we shouldn't discuss specific behaviors we want to incentivize and then do so.
I HATED that I lost out on one measly XP for not wearing a costume, but it ultimately encouraged me to wear a costume. Many, if not most, of our players would wear costumes whether or not we gave out rewards for it, but for me, the incentive was what drove the behavior. (Note: I am NOT encouraging a costume reward.)
This conversation relates to the topic we discussed briefly at IHOP: varying player motivations in an RPG.
The trick is: if we provide too many incentives, then the power gamers could gobble them all up, creating an imbalance in power. If we favor one area or gamespace over another, we may lose players who are less interested in those spaces. I think the solution to this is to vary the types of incentives we offer and match them to the different areas deliberately.
Example: folks who are active on the forums are generally interested in character development, interaction, RP, and creative writing. We can reward this behavior with things that reflect those motivators: custom plot, ST attention, reference to forum threads in game-day events, maybe sub-plots/side-quests based on the forum activities. These may or may not include minor mechanical rewards (Glory, Status, etc.) but those would not be the focus.
Example: (we already do this in EH usually): There is an arts competition. PCs who bring or create an actual "work of art" receive a free raise, no matter the "quality" of the piece. This does not penalize players who are maxxed out in Artisan, but have no desire/time to do an actual thing (they should be able to overcome a single raise), BUT it adds to the verisimilitude of the game and encourages folks to be creative in an arts competition.
A final note: I personally think the single greatest incentive we can provide is ST Attention. It is also our most limited resource. We must use it judiciously.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 27, 2016 17:36:28 GMT -5
Generally speaking, I do not believe a larp should be a heavily punitive experience, and as such, I want to generally focus on rewards over penalties, and to embrace different playstyles as valid.
For instance, the map game would indeed be a standard element, and our more strategy-game loving folks will probably pursue that regardless...but some players will absolutely not care about the map game for it's own sake. That's why it's important that the map game offer at least something to individual players, to make it relevant and interesting for them. Also, resources can be traded away for influence, etc, which will likely have relevance outside of the map game. So, someone who is less interested in economy might dump off koku for influence, and go play status games or similar. In this way, nobody is explicitly punished for pursuing a given goal...everyone has finite resources, and can pursue whatever they wish.
Rewards, when given, should be fairly modest compared to a basic character, I think. 1 xp/game is still reasonably significant. A possible 20xp at char creation is huge, at least at first. I would suggest we not do anything like that, or some players will resent it as essentially required busy-work to be mechanically relevant.
Requiring physreps, etc can become a burden on players with limited funds. I like them quite a bit, but I don't necessarily want them to be required. Recognition is wonderful, but if we start tossing around too many mechanical benefits, then people can and will cheese this. I think there's value in calling out really cool stuff(like the tessen Erick made) without necessarily making a big mechanical deal out of it. Small things, like a pip of glory or something, sure, but as we get into bigger awards, they end up creating gaps between players.
Also, I was unaware that there was any policy for a raise for a physrep in competitions. I suggest that any such policies be written down in advance.
Do agree that ST attention is very finite. I've seen custom mods used as rewards before, but as explicit rewards, they're maybe...too big? It's a hard thing to promise to everyone. I generally liked the idea of keeping track of how long it's been since an individual player got personal plot attention, that seems cool. Sure, written stuff can be inspiration for what that plot is when the time comes, but giving everyone roughly equal cracks at doing cool personal things seems great.
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