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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 7, 2016 15:54:29 GMT -5
Here is my idea for the Kingmaker portion. I am pretty proud of how flexible, simple, and through it is. So be kind in the critique.
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A Battle for Blocks
or
“Kingmaker” for Otosan Uchi
Introduction
Below is description of the “Kingmaker” rules for controlling the city of Otosan Uichi after a massive earthquake.
Blocks
The basis of control in Otosan Uchi is the “block”. It is small section of the city with most of the fundamentals it needs to operate and a significant population within it. There is no set size given that density of a block can vary. Consult the map for details.
Control of a Block
Control of blocks is exerted by the PCs and his samurai followers. The number he can control is determined by the number of samurai units he has his disposal
1st Block: 0 Samurai Units (The PC is able to control his first block by pure force of personality)
2nd Block: 3 Samurai Units
3rd Block: 6 Samurai Units (9 in total)
4th Block: 9 Samurai Units (18 in total)
5th or more: 3 * (X-1) where X is the number of the Block being taken control of.
Note: Control of blocks does not “use up” your samurai. They are still available for downtimes and mass combats. However units committed to activities that take up the entire session are not available for determining how many blocks you can control.
Note: Rokugan is a feudal system, you were never meant to rule everything like absolute monarch from Renaissance Europe or military dictator from the 20th Century. Find vassals to expand your control and allies to cover your flanks.
Loyalty of a Block
Loyalty of a Block is a measure of the residents loyalty to the PC that controls their block and their capability of expressing that loyalty. It is measured on a range from -5 to 5. While there are undoubtedly benefits and drawbacks from the Loyalty score to be discovered from role-play, below is the Kingmaker effect of your Block’s Loyalty
• 5: Can call on 5 Ashirugu for 1 specific mass combat per session, and 4 Industries are active
• 4: Can call on 4 Ashirugu for 1 specific mass combat per session, and 3 Industries are active
• 3: Can call on 3 Ashirugu for 1 specific mass combat per session, and 3 Industries are active
• 2: Can call on 2 Ashirugu for 1 specific mass combat per session, and 2 Industries are active
• 1: Can call on 1 Ashirugu for 1 specific mass combat per session, and 2 Industries are active
• 0: 1 Industry is active
• -1: 1 virtual Ashirugu will join the side that is contesting your control of this block. 1 Industry is active
• -2: 2 virtual Ashirugu will join the side that is contesting your control of this block, , 0 Industry is active
• -3: 3 virtual Ashirugu will join the side that is contesting your control of this block. , 0 Industry is active
• -4: 4 virtual Ashirugu will join the side that is contesting your control of this block. , 0 Industry is active
• -5: 5 virtual Ashirugu will join the side that is contesting your control of this block. , 1 of your Industries or special structures is destroyed by looting or vandalism per session.
Loyalty for each PC owned block falls by 1 at the start of each session (typically that is reflected on your sheet at the start of game)
Loyalty can be increased by 1 by expending 1 Earth Resource Token when Loyalty is equal to or less than 0. And it can be increased by 1 by expending 1 Earth, 1 Fire, and 1 Water Resource Token when Loyalty is equal to or greater than 1. Loyalty can be increased by the expenditure of resources twice per month.
It is possible to increase Loyalty by means other than providing needed resources for your territory. But bear in mind that that Loyalty is also an expression of the blocks capability of expressing that loyalty. Heroics and honor may make the peasants love you, but it won’t fill their bellies or keep their backside's warm
Claiming a Block
If a PC has the required number of Samurai Units they can claim a block.
If the block is unclaimed, then they merely have to deal with the squatters such as ronin, yakuza, militant monks, etc. that have set up shop in the block due to the power vacuum. This can be handled by mass combat. Typically such a block will have 1 or 2 ashirgu or 1 samurai unit in it. However the PC is welcome to try roleplaying methods in order claim a block. They are not limited to mass combat
If the block is claimed by a PC or NPC, they must contest control with them via the mass combat system or via the combat system if they have no units.
Resource Tokens:
There are 5 basic resource tokens in the Kingmaker
• Earth: Earth resources are the bedrock of all civilization. They consist of stable foods such as millet, rice, and some roots & vegetables.
• Water: Water resources are resources that make people strong and fit. They consist of foods such fruits and protein sources such a fish, pork, and chicken.
• Fire: Fire resources are resources that warm the people physically or mentally. They consist of things like firewood, simple clothing, and alcohol.
• Air: Air resources are resources that make the people reach the lofty heights of their full potential and sophistication. They consist of things like theater productions, access to parks and artwork, and geisha services.
• Void: Void resources are resources that fill the void of another need in your life. This diverse set covers things like tea, silk, or access to monkly wisdom.
----o Under the right circumstances a Void resource can be substituted for most any other resource. The flavor plays a big role in determining if can substitute..
Note: Resource Tokens often have a “Flavor”. For the most part the STs will be counting on players to help track the flavor for roleplaying purposes. Please be honest.
Note: Resource Tokens are NOT Item Cards. Item Cards are case-by-case things given out by an ST.
Utilizing a Block
Up to 4 “Industries” can be built on a block. And depending on your Loyalty on the block up to 4 can be in operation or active.
Industries are ultimately custom structures that the PCs build. But generally follow the following guidelines:
• Producer Industry: A producer industry produces 2 Resource tokens per session.
• Transforming Industry: A transformer industry changes 2 Resource tokens into 2 Resource Tokens per session. Changed per Alex's suggestion
• The amount of resources a Industry can create can be increased by things like PC downtimes and roleplay or the commitment of units
• [Guidelines for building an Industry to come]
Below are some examples of Industries:
• Fishing Fleet: A PC has noticed that his block borders the bay. He decides he wants to build a fishing fleet and set his peasants to work on it. This is a Producing Industry, so the ST decides it will produce 2 Water Resources (Fish) per session.
• Theater: A PC decides he wants to build a theater in order to make his territory more sophisticated. He also has a unit of Shosuro Actors. This a Producing Industry, so the ST decides it will produce 2 Air Resources per session. And furthermore if the PC commits his Shosuro Actors to the theater, it will produce an extra 2 Air Resources.
• Sakeworks: A PC comes into a lot of rice (Earth Tokens) and since he is skilled brewer so he decides to build a sake works. This is a Transforming Industry, so the ST decides that it will turn 2 Earth Tokens into 2 Fire Tokens per session. The ST also allows him to make a brewing roll after expending a downtime to increase that transformation by 1.
• Park: A PC decides he wants to build a park on his block and set his workers to maintaining it. This is a Producing Industry, so the ST decides it will produce 2 Air Resources. However since it hard to trade this kind of Air Resource, determines that the Air Resources are untransferrable and increase the monthly production to 3 in order to balance this drawback.
Other Structures
It is possible to build other structures on your block(s). Like for instance if you want to build a master-level forge, a castle, or statue, those are all possible. However such structures are beyond the Kingmaker mechanics. For purposes of Kingmaker, your block serves as a guide on determining who can access to this structure.
Chasing Opportunities
Once per session a PC can make a gathering information check in order to learn of potential opportunities. The skill, attribute, and TN of this check will be determined by the method used to collect information. Expending downtimes will grant bonuses or free raises to this check as determined by the ST supervising your downtime. For each raise made on this check, you get an extra opportunity.
Once your number of opportunities is determined you can pick one of 2 kinds of opportunities:
• Roleplaying Opportunity: A bowl of folded papers will contain a series of roleplaying encounters that the STs are running. A player can pull out one. It covers :
--o what roleplaying encounter the PC learned of,
--o which ST is running it,
--o where it will be held, and
--o what time it will be held.
• Kingmaker Opportunity: Roll a percentile die and consult the Kingmaker Opportunity Table. Most Kingmaker opportunities are mere exchange of one thing for another (usually Samurai protection in return for Resources). But if you wish and ST is willing, you can try to get the Kingmaker Opportunity turned into Roleplaying Opportunity.
This Kingmaker Oppurtunity Table changes and thus is not provided in this document.
Additionally it is sometimes possible to change a Kingmaker Opportunity into a long term arrangement via roleplay.
Note: STs are not limited to this method of introducing plot. This is just the systematic way of learning of plot that the STs are leaving open for anyone to discover and earning resources for the Kingmaker portion.
Ruined Blocks
Blocks have a ruined rating of 0 to 5 (0 means it is un-ruined). While ruined, any existing industry or special structures will usually be unavailable. It will require resources and/or roleplay in order to get this rubble removed from a block and make it fit for human occupation. Typically it will take a session to reduce a block’s rating by 1 if the PC is successful in the attempt.
Rightful Claimant
It is possible for a block to have a “Rightful Claimant”. Whenever the greater portion of Rokugan recognizes that you have a legitimate claim over territory you become the Rightful Claimant of that territory. This can happen due to Imperial edict, inheritance from someone who had a Rightful Claim, or from holding a territory for a long time and managing it well.
If you are the Rightful Claimant your samurai units get a +50% morale bonus to mass combat score in which control of the block is being contested. Only applies to fights in the city.
Entering a Block Controlled by another character
If a PC tells a ST he is specifically entering another character’s block, it is left up to the presiding ST’s discretion to determine if and how quickly the controller of the block is informed.
Examples:
• Akodo Toturi enters Kakita Satori’s block in order to have sex with his lover who lives there. Since Toturi is being discrete, wearing plain armor, and the block is on main road in the city, the ST determines that Satori never learns of Toturi’s presence. He is just another samurai traveling through a busy part of the city and the patrols and loyal peasants think nothing of him.
• Matsu Roshu drunkenly enters Kakita Satori’s block and starts fondling peasant maiden’s boobs. Since this behavior is very notable and Satori’s block is quite and orderly, the ST determines that Satori will learn of this from his samurai followers in 20 minutes. If the scene is still going on in 20 minutes, the ST pauses the scene to give Satori’s player the option to join the scene.
• Yasuki Jiriaya invades Kakita’s Satori’s block with a force of armored Crab samurai, intent on taking over. Satori is made immediately aware of this fact and the subsequent mass combat or scene is paused until Satori’s player is given a chance to react.
If a PC has openly declared vassals, lieges, or allies, they may be informed of this trespass additionally.
Note: Having vassals, lieges, and allies are very important if you miss a game. Such individuals can easily rally your units to defend your territory or warn other PCs of what is going on. If you have no such relationships, the STs will run the event as they deem fit with the resources you have at your disposal.
Note: There is nothing inherently and clearly wrong with entering a claimed block. This rule is just in place to make trespassers aware that the controller can potentially can react to this action. But a PC can spin this trespass however they want in character. And of course specific types of trespass may be illegal by Imperial law or worthy of a duel.
Koku
Koku does impact the Kingmaker. But the ways in which it can be utilized depend on a case-on-case basis with this ST. But to provide some examples:
• You could use Koku to get a group a yakuza to leave so you can claim a hex
• You could use Koku to hire a bunch of laborers to remove ruins.
• You could use Koku to buy Resource Tokens in the marketplace
• You could use Koku to get a Sakeworks built.
Utilizing Resources Tokens Beyond Loyalty
Resource Tokens are primarily used to keep your people happy and productive. But they can have additional impacts. Like Koku it could be used to hire, bribe, build, etc., Again this is a situation determined by the presiding ST.
Example of “Kingmaker Character Sheet”
On the Next page is example on player’s Kingmaker Character Sheet. These are maintained by the STs and must be turned back in at the end of game for record keeping purposes. Notes will be written on the sheet by the ST to reflect changes over the course of the game.
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Character Name: Yasuki Jiriaya
Player Name: Tim Coltharp
Number of Samurai Units: 15
Number of Uncommitted Samurai Units: 9 (Can control 3 blocks)
Description of Unit Commitments:
• Yasuki Jiriaya has sent 4 units of Samurai into the farmlands around Otosan Uchi in order to protect the farmers from bandits and ruffians. In return they give him 3 Earth Resources (Rice & Millet) and 1 Water Resource (Plums) per session. It would take 1 downtime to recall them
• Yasuki Jiriaya has sent 2 units of Samurai to protect a ronin merchant patron under his service. In return the merchant patron gives him 1 Resource of his choice per session. It would take 3 downtimes to recall them Openly Declared Vassals: Kaiu Tomatsu Openly Declared Liege: Hida Tadaka Openly Declared Allies: Miya Naomi, Shoshuro Mei
1st Block
Block Number: 28
Block Name: Home of the Splendid Carp
Ruin Rating 0
Loyalty: 4
Rightful Claimant None
Industry 1 Fishing Fleet – 2 Water Resources (Fish) per session
Industry 2 Sakeworks – 2 Earth Resources for 2 Fire Resources (Alcohol) per session.
----Note: Occassionaly Hida Tadaka works here during downtime. When he successfully helps this increases output to 3 Fire Resources per session.
Industry 3: Theater – 2 Air Resources per session
----Note: Shosuro Mei has committed a unit of Shosuro Actors here. As long as they are committed increase output to 4 Air Resources
Industry 4: Park – 3 Untransferrable Air Resources per session.
----Note: Player has the option to cash in one of the Air Resources for 10 Koku a pop to denote wealthier class people who have been attracted to this block by the park.
Special 1: Luxurious Home – Yasuki Jiriaya has built himself a fine home in this district. It is worthy of hosting anyone of status 10 or lower
Special 2: 10’ Statue of Miya Naomi on a pedestal in the center of the block’s park.
Special 3: Security Walls – A simple security wall surrounds this block. It makes it harder for people to infiltrate the block and grants a +20% bonus to a defending forces
Special 4: City Walls – The old city walls run along the eastern side of this block. If an invader tries to invade from this direction during mass combat, it grants a +400% to the defending forces
Special 5: Kaiu Tomatsu’s Forge – This masterwork forge that has been set aside for Kaiu Tomatsu
Special 6: Large Fireproof Storehouse – Allows Yasuki Jiriaya to store up to 30 tokens with heightened security.
2nd Block
Block Number: 1
Block Name: Eastern Section of Forbidden City
Ruin Rating: 5
Loyalty: 0
Rightful Claimant: None
Industry 1: None
3rd Block
Block Number: 15
Block Name: The Crane’s Contemplation
Ruin Rating: 1 (cannot utilize Industries until this is reduced to 0)
Loyalty: -5
Rightful Claimant: Kakita Satori
Industry 1: Geisha House– 2 Air Resources per session
Industry 2: Temple to Kakita & Doji – 2 Void Resources per Session
Special 1: Nice, but looted Home – The former home of Kakita Satori. Much of the valuables were looted, but it is still serviceable building with minor damage. If refurnished and repaired it would be worthy of hosting anyone of Status 5 or lower.
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Example of a Kingmaker Opportunity Table
• 1 to 10: Farmers need 3 Samurai committed to their protection. Reward: 3 Earth
• 11 to 15: Farmers need 2 Samurai committed to their protection. Reward: 1 Earth, 1 Water
• 16 to 20: Farmers need 2 Samurai committed to their protection. Reward: 2 Earth
• 21 to 30: Farmers need 1 Samurai committed to their protection. Reward: 1 Earth
• 31 to 40: Fishermen need 5 Samurai capable of fighting at sea to drive off a pirate. Reward 5 Water(fish)
• 41 to 45: Brewer needs 2 Samurai committed to their protection. Reward: 4 Fire (alcohol)
• 46 to 55: Forest Preserve Warden needs 5 Samurai committed to help drive out group of ronin bandits in his forest. Reward 5 Fire (firewood)
• 56 to 60: Ronin Merchant Patron needs 2 Samurai committed to his protection. Reward 1 good of the player’s choice.
• 61 to 65: Eta need 1 Samurai unit committed to driving off a ronin vagrant. Reward: Eta’s gratitude (roleplay for specifics)
• 66 to 70: Unemployed Geisha needs 50 koku. Reward: Geisha’s gratitude (roleplay for specifics)
• 71 to 80: Starving peasants need 5 Earth Token. Reward: Starving peasant’s gratitude (roleplay for specifics)
• 81 to 85: Carpenter needs wood. Reward: Ruin Score reduced from 1 to 0 in one block.
• 86 to 90: Unemployed mason needs 50 koku. Reward: Ruin Score can be reduced by 1 in one block.
• 91 to 95: Impoverished noble needs PC spouse. Reward: Player who marries the noble gets Rightful Claim on a single unclaimed block.
• 96 to 100: Bored nobles need 5 Air Tokens. Reward: 400 Koku or gratitude of bored nobles (roleplay for specifics)
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Post by Alex ST on Jul 8, 2016 8:40:13 GMT -5
It took me awhile to go through this so forgive the delay. There are a lot of things I like here but there are also a lot of things I see as problematic. I'll get into the specifics below, but in summary the best part about this is that this is a complete system that looks like it would work. Reading through this I have no doubt that it would work to run a game. It is complete, looks to be balanced, and is clear in how it functions. The main problems I'm seeing all stem from the fact that it is overly complicated. I can't imagine tracking this for twenty players, let alone forty if the larp gets going. A few players will love a system of this scale and complexity while a huge number will be turned off by it; the current map game in EH is simple enough that those forced into it can do well enough, but because this is an opt-in system I fear that something like this will cause a number of people to opt out.
Now to individual points.
I like this sense of scale, rather than hexes, squares, or some other objective size-based measurement. This makes it feel more like controlling a city than just controlling a map.
I really like that each subsequent block gets more expensive to control. This strongly encourages alliances and vassalage, exactly the kind of Rokugan we want to show. The note for players is also good.
This was the part where I started to go, "Uggghhhh..." Beyond the fact that's an intimidating-looking chart, this is something that we need to do manually. It's a lot of work and even though some players have specifically said that they want to do that work it creates two problems. The first is that the more things we have to do by hand, the more likely we are to get mistakes. The second is that the more complicated the system is the harder it becomes for players to understand what they're best options are. When I see a chart like this it doesn't feel like I'm playing a larp anymore; it feels like I'm playing a spreadsheet.
Now I do like that this is set up so that players can be effective with just a few blocks under their control, but that also means that each block needs to be detailed. I see the sample character sheet you wrote at the bottom (thanks for that! It gives the conversation much more context) and I can't imagine keeping track of this for a twenty-person game, let alone anything larger. I don't mean in terms of tracking for mechanical purposes either; I mean just as a GM trying to understand what's going on in our own game. A lot of the breakdowns we had in 7th Sea were because we couldn't keep track of what players were doing with their time and resources and we couldn't create appropriate stories as a result.
I'm a big fan of the simplicity here. That's great. If I have units available, I can take the block. If someone's there, we fight. That part's perfect. I am very reluctant to have everything go to mass combat. It's time consuming, dangerous, and the more common it is the less impact it has when we want that big dramatic battle. I would suggest instead that if it's controlled by NPCs there be a single contested roll based on how you're trying to control it (taking it by force = Battle (Mass Combat)/Perception, persuading the inhabitants to switch their allegiance = Courtier (Manipulation)/Awareness, using Yakuza connections to set yourself up as a boss = Lore: Underworld/Intelligence, and so on). Only do mass combat if it's PC vs. PC.
I love this idea. Love, love, love, love, love it. We don't do enough with five rings philosophy and I'm thrilled to see it reflected in the game like this. Brilliant, good sir!
This is where it gets too complicated for me again. I understand that this would work much simpler in practice but the way it's explained is overly complex. Also, I think you're going the wrong way with transformation. By making it such a good option (double the number of resources!) it encourages players to transform everything rather than build resources and swap with other players. I'd much rather see it handled like in Settlers of Cataan where you can transform if that's the only way to get the resource you need but it's usually a far better option to trade with other players.
I'm confused. First you say other structures are possible but then you say that they're beyond the mechanics of this game. Can I build a castle or not? If so, how is it determined what gets built, what it does, and how much it costs?
I cannot express enough about what a headache this is going to be, from coming up with that supply of grab bag plots every month to actually adjudicating them. I understand what this is trying to do and I actually played in a really good one-shot that utilized a similar mechanic but that one-shot also had a 9 month prep time.
Sure, those work.
Again, this is a lot of work to keep track of things, and it also means we need copies of every single block's sheet on hand (possibly two, if the player has one as well). I'd like something much simpler.
I'm glad to see Koku acknowledged but I'd like to see it expanded a bit. Default rates that koku can be converted, for example. Koku play a big part for several courtier Schools, and if we utilize the Way of the Daimyo rules then they're the focus of the Merchant Patron path.
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 8, 2016 15:35:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the great critique Alex.
Before I hit the points I want to respond to the first thing I want to make sure I convey is the four pages of rules are not so much rules as they are guidelines for on how to make "character sheet" for the Kingmaker aspect of your character. As "plot ST" all you need to do is look at the Kingmaker character sheet and use your own judgement if any of the stuff you are running would be effected. Things like distributing resources or determining mass combat are not something you need to worry about. But if PC 1 wants to burn down PC 2's home, it should give you enough of framework to know what defenses the PCs has his disposal to create a rational plot about it on the fly. And if a plot succeeds, all you need to do is mark it off the character sheet and when they turn it in I would update it after game.
Loyalty of Block:
I kind of understand your concerns and the same time I see some of it as unavoidable if we have any level of Kingmaker. Some accounting is unavoidable.
First off, the chart is not really something you personally will really never have to worry about. Since you will never have to hand out resources, you will never have to know what it means to have an industry on or off. And if you have to run a mass combat, the math for the number of units is easy. Every point of loyalty gives a PC an ashirgu, and if you have negative loyalty it gives the PC's enemy an ashirigu. I did it in chart format because I always found it easier for people follow charts than formulas.
Second I have great trust in your ability to look at number between -5 and 5 and come up with a plot that makes sense. A big part of these rules are they are just guidelines that trust the presiding ST to not go totally off the rails. It is not really an different than looking a NPC's attributes and skills and deciding how they would behave. If you were handed an NPC with Courtier 0, I know you (and the other STs) would not play him as Crane Socialite who knows all the latest gossip (without very good reason). I have trust that if you saw that some block had Loyalty of -5 you run it as crime-ridden, destitute, and full of surly peasants, and not like it was block full of happy, accommodating peasants eager to kowtow to samurai.
Third, as for keeping track of what is each block, my advice is simple "Don't". You don't keep track of every players attributes, skills, advantages, and disadvantages. When ever you know something would effect a character, you look at their character sheet and determine the effect. The same is true here. The only time you need to know what is on a block is when you are aware of when it would effect a block or when you have thought of a good plot and are looking for the right person to spring it on. And if you know that the plot you ran would effect that block, then use your best judgment and write it down the change on your character sheet. At the end of the day I will record into the permanent record when they turn in the character sheet. And if you are still having trouble figuring out how it would effect a kingmaker character sheet, ask another ST or me and will just do it for you based on description you provide of the event.
Fourth, now I am definitely up to finding ways to communicate rules better. And I definitely want to make my models as streamlined and adherent to reality and our game goals as possible.
But, I don't really care about coddling a player who wants to play the Kingmaker portion of the game, but can't be bothered to comprehend one simple chart. These are players who learn like over 50 pages of dense material in order to play their character. If one simple chart breaks them, then there is nothing I can do about that. If you are going to have Kingmaker you are going to have some degree of formulas, math, and charts. If this is too much for the much for them, then the Kingmaker is always optional. But one thing that drove me up the wall in the current LARP is several players never bothered to learn the Kingmaker, but still wanted all the perks (Leadership, sitting at the big boy table, etc.) that come with being involved in it. When the STs coddled them, their ignorance turned into a superpower. Time again and again they would do stupid things in the Kingmaker, the STs would coddle them and pull their punches against them specifically, and then they would walk around like they were the shit and smirk at how moneygrubbing and cowardly my characters are. And in kingmaker making skill at resource management a draw back pretty much ruins it.
Just like with all rules, if you coddle players too much and never make them go up that learning curve, you will end up disadvantaging those that do take the bother to learn the rules. And given that the Kingmaker is optional and I see no reason to pull punches. It sounds like you guys are coming up with plenty of plot for the players, and there at least 7 people who would be willing to manage a block for player if they are willing to become a vassal for them. And I personally am perfectly alright with a liege proxying a vassal, as long as we don't end up with one single super liege with no challenge.
With all that said, I will try to call you and go over it verbally. I think you are seeing charts and paragraphs and seeing work falling on your plate and that of the players. But I think when you see it action you will realize that is not really much more work than the resource system for Dystopia Rising.
Claiming a Block
I have two answers to that.
One, I leave that up to presiding ST to handle the roleplay. If they want to make it a single draw it is up to them. If they want to turn it into a full blown scene. After discussing it with you I think dealing with squatters will be a lot like handling a hunting scene from a Vampire game. Some STs and players like a single draw. Some STs and players like a full scene. There is no reason that both methods can't operate beside one another.
Two, I personally plan to encourage Mediation and will provide ample advice in order to help people along the learning curve. Like for instance if I see a PC is trying to claim a block with a Ronin unit of squaters with just one samurai unit, I am not going to waste 30 minutes of my life running a doomed mass combat just to play a game of "Suprise! You should have known the rules better, dummy.". The squatters is a mechanic designed to capture what happens when order breaks down, provide some challenge to players, give them a chance to test out their Kingmaker chops on an easy opponent, and to keep experienced players from playing musical chairs with their blocks. If someone tells me that they want to claim a block my first Question will be "Are you using roleplay or jumping straight to Mass Combat?" and if they want to go straight to mass combat I will tell them "If get 5 samurai units to help, I will just mediate that you took the square with no significant causalities, give you 3 pips of glory, and work with you create a scene where your character did something heroic." And if they still push on I will warn them that they have good chance of losing the fight, are they sure?
Utilizing a Block
You make an excellent point and I agree on the Transforming industries. We do want to encourage trade, and the transforming industries as I described them could ruin that. I am good with a 1 for 1.
Other Structures
Sorry If this confusing. I will probably follow up verbally, but let me take one last stab at it.
Other Structures can not be used effect the Kingmaker. So you could not use them to make Resource tokens, effect Loyalty, effect Ruin Score, etc. They are limited to effects in other rule sets or are just flavor.
It also serves same role as an item card. If a player makes a really good sword, you give them item card to track it. If a player makes a really pleasing shrine to kami, you place it on their kingmaker character sheet to track it.
Chasing Oppurtunies
My advice is simple. "Don't" Nothing requires any of you guys to come up with roleplaying plots by this method. If no ST wants to submit plot this route, then the bag will be empty. I make a note of saying that this will not be the only way that STs hook players into plot. And if the STs give me the impression none of them will ever use it, I will just delete it. I put this part in because I remember Charles saying he would like a way to run plot that effects or provides resources for the Kingmaker via roleplay.
And if none of you want to turn a Kingmaker Opportunity into a Roleplaying Oppurtunity. The rules say "and a ST is willing".
Want I want to communicate through out these rules, is "Roleplay if you can." The kingmaker does not have be a dry exercise in resource management. If you can find a ST who is doing nothing and feels up to it, then by all means turn this dry exercise into a chance to roleplay. But I also trying to be careful to communicate that you have to find a willing ST. No ST is obligated to come up with a plot because of the kingmaker.
Entering a Block Controlled by another character
I think this another case that you see rules and see work piling up on you.
If you read this section carefully you realize that is just good ST common sense, spelled out.
Like for example, if a PC was trying to kill another PC would you NOT pause the scene to get the other PC involved in scene? And if a PC is teleporting away his sword via undetectable, unmistakable magical means wouldn't you go over and take away their sword without explaining why it happened?
Again, I have trust you guys know when you need to pull an effected PC into a scene that would impact him. That is why this section provides no hard rules, just examples. The kingmaker character sheet will just help make it easier for you to come up with those TNs to determine discovery and when to pull someone into a scene in a more consistent way.
Koku
This is one point where I can't help you. Since I don't know if we will have Koku, Wealth, etc. or its retaliative value, I can't even approximate any prices. At this point all I am saying is that if you have some money, you will be allowed to spend your money in the Kingmaker portion of the game.
My personal preference would be to try use koku koku as described in the Book for this LARP. I have played and/or ran like 4 different Kingmaker like games and there is VERY good reason why all of them have abstracted the "currency" of the game. Having and spending that much cash money opens up a pandora's box of "how did that happen?" When the currency is just currency it becomes confusing as how castles pop up over night, how settlers crossed an ocean to end up a port when no ships have visited in months, and how you spend 100k in koku in one day without crashing the economy or storing the currency. But if currency is "cash + raw materials + labor", those questions are gone. The castle? Your process of saving up for it was also the process of building it. The settlers? They were always here, you just had get the resources to organize and outfit them. The 100k in koku? Silly, that was the covee labor that your peasants promised provide to your projects, you never had Scrouge McDuck moneybin sitting somewhere with 100k in koku in it.
But this Kingmaker has the potential to actually use currency currency. We are working with a relatively small, localized economy with lots of potential labor. And if parts of the setting is handled in certain way, the amount of wealth the PCs are playing with will not be a mindblowingly huge magnitude of size bigger than the money they are expected to work with in table top games. I tried to write the rules in way that allow us to for use currency currency instead currency plus. All we need to do is keep the blocks small and numerous. If we can pull off using currency currency, then it would allow players and STs to use the item lists directly and a lot less tailoring those traits that assume a normal koku based environment. But I am not married to either having or not having a currency plus environment. The kingmaker I came up with allows for it, but the unit production and maintenance methods and influence expenditure methods that have not been settled on may not.
I need to read the Way of the Daimyo rules before I give a final judgement, but from what I have heard so far I don't like them. It sounds more like a rule system for giving players in a tabletop game a systematic and consistent way of poweerbuilding . It sounds like they don't illicit PC interaction, involve no resource management, and would make it hard for entertaining PVP at the Kingmaker level.
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Post by travislerol on Jul 12, 2016 7:25:41 GMT -5
I think, rather than a desire to coddle players, the issue is more that tracking a scale of points for each block or hex is...painful. It's a big reason why the current game has difficulty with many things. Simply updating the map is a HUGE time sink for Ian, and I think we're in general agreement that control needs to be less granular to make a player-centric approach to control feasible. We're looking at pretty much straight binary at the moment, either you have it, or you don't. This means it's super easy to track stuff on the map for us, and it's also more immediately apparent to players, since tracking claim on a per hex basis was not usually obvious to them.
Blocks being small and numerous is good. I like that style.
I also like currency plus other stuff. Currency being common makes social downsides like too much mercantile behavior actually matter. On the flip side, players should not spend currency alone for everything. The dealmaking and such necessary in acquiring things only one clan has access to, that's essential to the setting for a Larp, I think. I don't think we've set hard numbers on anything yet, we're still batting around base systems and the like, and all numbers are pretty tentative, for illustration purposes. I would simply suggest that koku ranges be such that they are easily represented with monopoly money throughout the game's run.
Mass Combat is...another slow point in the current system. It's cool, and it will probably come up at some point, but I would rather that it not be a default interaction. Running 3-5 mass combats in a game, even with multiple STs, rapidly engulfs the entire game in that. I mean, I can optimize mass combat and speed it up *some*, but at the end of the day, unless you remove iconic stuff, you still have issues like five players sitting in a room while one PC is dueling. It's inherently at least a little slow. This is fine if you're only using mass combat for huge, plot events every 3-6 months or whatever, but it gets brutal with volume.
I do agree that emphasizing vassalage and similar is good. Influence should matter. It should be desirable to involve other PCs in things, both for economy and exploration. Some abstraction is essential, though. The 1 industry per block is a good example of that. It's not wholly realistic, but it's good enough for an abstraction, and it makes our life much easier. I want each individual block to be fairly easy to track, and for it's function to be visually obvious for 95% of stuff.
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 12, 2016 10:42:18 GMT -5
Another good critique I think, rather than a desire to coddle players, the issue is more that tracking a scale of points for each block or hex is...painful. It's a big reason why the current game has difficulty with many things. Simply updating the map is a HUGE time sink for Ian, and I think we're in general agreement that control needs to be less granular to make a player-centric approach to control feasible. We're looking at pretty much straight binary at the moment, either you have it, or you don't. This means it's super easy to track stuff on the map for us, and it's also more immediately apparent to players, since tracking claim on a per hex basis was not usually obvious to them. I agree that the claim system from the current LARP is a mess. I understand what Ian was trying to achieve with it, but it was way too much bookkeeping for too little reward. I like the idea of a simple binary, that is why in the system I proposed either you control a block or you don't. But I see it as kind of hard to use them exclusively. I have never seen a Kingmaker completely eliminate some sort of ranged value. Perhaps if you can understand my reasoning behind the loyalty system you can think of something simplier 1) I think some sort of upkeep mechanic is important. It keeps players interacting, instead of letting materials passively build until circumstance forces them to do something with them. This is a problem I think that hurt the current Kingmaker. Except for Travis and Ressler, I never remember a player coming up to me to see if they could make a deal. If a player realizes he could lose his Kingmaker holdings unless he interacts with other players to get needed materials, then either he will lose them (which is great for us because it means less bookkeeping for a players who were not using the system we designed) or they will interact with other players. 2) I think differentiating between a territory that is managed poorly, managed adequately, and managed well is important. It creates a carrot and stick system of incentives to keep them managing their territory. Plus it sends a signal to other players that they are weak and ready for conquest. I think the most interesting war in the current LARP was the conflict between the Dragon and Unicorn. I love it because anyone who watched the Kingmaker game well knew it was bound to happen (the Dragon where hemmed and needed territory to grow and the Unicorn had left big sections of their territory horribly undermanned), it was completely driven by PC choices and reactions, the result modeled reality (the weak & disorganized side was thrashed by the strong & organized side), and resolved by PC choices and reactions. If I had my way we would have a war like that every 4 to 6 months in this game, and that would be the only kind of mass combat that happens. But none of that would have happened if the STs had not allowed signals of weakness to occur. My personal preference is that we aim for about 50% to 80% of the blocks to be occupied when we reach expected maximum PC control. That way there is always some vaguely, poorly managed area for the plot to arise in and spaces for new players to join in. So if we assume that everyone will take a block in game of 20 and like 7 players will get invested in Kingmaker and take like 4 blocks, that would be about 41 blocks run by PCs. So I think I would favor some where between 50 and 90 blocks all together. But 100 is a nice round number that lends itself using percentile dice. Yeah, we really need to peg some things down on the currency system before we can do much with it. And I agree that doing everything with koku is a bad idea. If all you have is berries and all I have is berries, there is no reason for us to trade. It sounds like I really need to punch up the language so it clear that mass combat is the final way of resolving claim, not the default. That was not my intent at all. But at the end of the day, if the PCs have armies and they want to use them to take blocks from other PCs, I don't see anyway of getting around mass combats. I think that is a fair way of doing things. I kind of designed my system with the idea that the typical PC would not control a lot of blocks. But if we up the number of expected blocks a player who who is invested in the Kingmaker will have, then the need to put everything in core "home" block goes away. |
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 12, 2016 11:21:32 GMT -5
Here is a suggestion in order to get it more "binary"
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Block Management
Each Block has degree of how well managed it is. At the start of session the block starts at "Poorly Managed"
• Poorly Managed: The people in your block are starving and destitute. As a result they are angry and rebellious at your rule. If another PC tries to take your block by military force, he will be joined by local dissidents in the form of 3 virtual ashrigu. Additionally you can not utilize the block's industry. You can upgrade to "Adequately Managed" by spending 1 Earth Resource Token. • Adequately Managed: The people are adequately feed. As a result everything operates as normal on this block. You can update to "Well Managed" by spending 1 Earth, 1 Water, and 1 Fire Token. • Well Managed: The people here feel well cared for and particularly loyal to their samurai master. As a result you can use your industry an extra time, and if you are attacked, peasant loyalists in the form of 3 virtual ashrigu will appear to protect your claim on the block.
Note: You are strongly encouraged to pay your upkeep when you pick up your Kingmaker Character Sheet. Ambitious samurai can take advantage of the period between when game starts and when you finally provide for your people in order to launch attacks. So it is probably a good idea to have next session's upkeep lined up before you end game.
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Utilizing a Block
Each block has a unique industry in it that you can utilize.
Industries are ultimately custom structures that the PCs build. But generally follow the following guidelines:
• Producer Industry: A producer industry produces 2 Resource tokens per session.
• Transforming Industry: A transformer industry changes 2 Resource tokens into 4 Resource Tokens per session.
• The amount of resources a Industry can create can be increased by things like PC downtimes and roleplay or the commitment of units
• [Guidelines for building an Industry to come]
Below are some examples of Industries:
• Fishing Fleet: A PC has noticed that his block borders the bay. He decides he wants to build a fishing fleet and set his peasants to work on it. This is a Producing Industry, so the ST decides it will produce 2 Water Resources (Fish) per session.
• Theater: A PC decides he wants to build a theater in order to make his territory more sophisticated. He also has a unit of Shosuro Actors. This a Producing Industry, so the ST decides it will produce 2 Air Resources per session. And furthermore if the PC commits his Shosuro Actors to the theater, it will produce an extra 2 Air Resources.
• Sakeworks: A PC comes into a lot of rice (Earth Tokens) and since he is skilled brewer so he decides to build a sake works. This is a Transforming Industry, so the ST decides that it will turn 2 Earth Tokens into 2 Fire Tokens per session. The ST also allows him to make a brewing roll after expending a downtime to increase that transformation by 1.
• Park: A PC decides he wants to build a park on his block and set his workers to maintaining it. This is a Producing Industry, so the ST decides it will produce 2 Air Resources. However since it hard to trade this kind of Air Resource, determines that the Air Resources are untransferrable and increase the monthly production to 3 in order to balance this drawback.
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Post by travislerol on Jul 13, 2016 8:45:36 GMT -5
Loyalty/Management level still ends up being kind of non-binary. I'm envisioning a system where you generally don't have to flip through each block and update stuff. Sure, signals of weakness are important, but...tbh, in EH, claim was mostly useless for that. It wasn't visible enough to be. Lack of troops was. That's why Resler and I suggested only two levels, the usual, functioning one, or "broken". Stuff breaks if you don't upkeep it, and may be broken through whatever other means, and simply doesn't produce at all until fixed. It's a bit abstracted from real world levels of functionality, but
The rings as resources is aesthetically pleasing, but we run into the "you have berries, I have berries" problem. Five resources is not going to promote much trade, particularly when each clan or person could produce multiple types. It's fairly easy for a player to just build the things that he needs, and not go to other players. This is the core reason why Resler and I suggested specialized clan resources and such. The exact mechanism for that is flexible, but figuring out how to get something you need from that guy who really doesn't want to deal with you is a fundamental source of much plot.
Also...I would generally suggest that we have a hard list of what the basic things do. Relying heavily on ST interpretation of what something should do was a huge pain in this game. We both had yam farms, that cost different amounts, but did the same thing, and we had sake works that cost the same amount, but had different mechanics. There are entire layers of mechanics(like the fact that the Order of Ashes has standing, which is affected by building temples) that most players don't even know exist NOW. This is kind of a problem.
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 13, 2016 11:02:02 GMT -5
Loyalty/Management level still ends up being kind of non-binary. I'm envisioning a system where you generally don't have to flip through each block and update stuff. Sure, signals of weakness are important, but...tbh, in EH, claim was mostly useless for that. It wasn't visible enough to be. Lack of troops was. That's why Resler and I suggested only two levels, the usual, functioning one, or "broken". Stuff breaks if you don't upkeep it, and may be broken through whatever other means, and simply doesn't produce at all until fixed. It's a bit abstracted from real world levels of functionality, but
It sounds like we are on the same page that there has to be an upkeep element to the system. But do you feel there is no need for or no room for an explicit carrot in the system? Upkeep is all stick.
Also I realize there is a potential problem in your works/broken system, there is no use for higher end consumables in it. Things like alcohol, fruit, clothes, tea, silk, spices, etc. are useless when all you are worried about is if the blacksmith, fishermen, and farmer has what he needs to do his job. In a works/broken system you really only need two goods: tools and grain. You end up with a lot of industries producing things that nothing else in your system requires or wants.
Also it sounds like you were going to make an important point there but forgot to finish it.
But at the other extreme, too many choices can cripple interaction. That is one of the things that crippled my economic system in my LARP. People saw all the choices and froze up. At the end of the day I think a system that communicates "Whatever you can do with this stuff in reality, you can do it in our game." and gives some examples may work better.
That said, I can see some space for some more types of goods. My system focuses mostly on common consumables. Things that are made and then used up quickly. It doesn't touch on things necessary to build infrastructure because I felt they may be to uncommon to warrant anything other than an item card, and does not touch military production because I don't know how that part of the rules is going to shake out.
My original idea was to have the Rings Resources broke down into subcategories, but when I discussed it with Charles he felt it was too complex and that players REALLY love the appeal of a good aesthetic. So on Charles's advice I just collapsed everything into 5 goods. Any further specialization can be captured with flavor descriptors.
My rules are fairly streamlined. I also tried to avoid discussion of costs too much because I still have no clue as to what income levels and kind currency we are working with. That is why I put in the rules "Guidelines on Building Industry to come". But I agree we need a list of costs and outputs in the final rules.
I also agree that we want to avoid too much ST interpretation. Let me give you a break down of how much ST interpretation I was anticipating at each part: -- Claiming a Block from Squatters: A lot of ST interpretation, but this part is not meant to be a serious challenge for PCs. -- Claiming a Block from PC and NPCs: Pretty much none. This is between players and STs are just referees. -- Using a Resource for the Kingmaker: Some very clear guidelines with more to come and little ST interpretation -- Using a Resource for Plot or giving out Resources from a Plot: The overseeing ST has pretty much complete control over how a Resource can be used and earned in his plot that he developed. The check on his interpretation occurs when he discusses the plot with the other STs. -- Utilizing an Industry: No ST interpretation. These will have clear and consistent mechanics that were predetermined. -- Building an Industry: STs stick to a guideline, consult other STs if they journey beyond that guideline -- Building Other Structures: Delegate design to a single ST or team of STs. Maintain central database of all Other Structures so that STs remain consistent over time -- Chasing Opportunities: A first draft of the table is designed by single ST and presented to STs for editing and approval once a month. The table should drift slowly, so it should not require major editing every month. -- Clearing Ruins: There will be guideline designed for how clearing with resources will be done (again avoided cost discussion in this document) and any plot necessary to clearing a ruin will be submitted and discussed to a ST meeting like normal plot. For example if an ST wants to have the PCs uncover zombies in a buried chamber when they reduce the Ruin rating from 5 to 4, then they tell us and we let them run that plot when we know it would happen. -- Rightful Claimant: This is a rarely handed out mechanic that would be discussed at ST meetings. It will only be given out if the STs have discussed it before hand. -- Entering Other Players Blocks: This is just good etiquette for an ST.
I don't know if we need a "hard list" so much a clearly communicated guideline. Like for example making it clear that what ever industry you pick is only going to produce 2 goods unless you give us a really good reason is nice and simple.
As for different mechanics for the same custom buildings, I think that is more a failing of record keeping than a failure of the rules. If the STs had just maintained a centralized database for custom buildings (aka a forum post where they entered the latest custom building), then that would have been much less of an issue. No rule system can keep an ST from failing to keep good notes and contradicting his past rulings.
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Post by Alex ST on Jul 13, 2016 12:55:23 GMT -5
What about creating non-map uses for goods? That way there's always a market for them and hoarding becomes a much more expensive prospect. For example, if I create a Fire resource I can use it to add a bonus to Fire draws (or maybe I have to specify a Trait or a Skill when I create it and it gives its bonus to that Trait/Skill). Because players make rolls/draws a lot more often than they do map stuff they'll go through resources a lot faster and have a lot more incentive to go for others' resources.
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 13, 2016 14:05:46 GMT -5
What about creating non-map uses for goods? That way there's always a market for them and hoarding becomes a much more expensive prospect. For example, if I create a Fire resource I can use it to add a bonus to Fire draws (or maybe I have to specify a Trait or a Skill when I create it and it gives its bonus to that Trait/Skill). Because players make rolls/draws a lot more often than they do map stuff they'll go through resources a lot faster and have a lot more incentive to go for others' resources. I definitely want non-map uses for goods.
Plot is definitely a place that could come into play.
The Opportunity Table is another source of that. For example one player may draw a sweetheart deal for Fire resources, but not have enough Fire resources to satisfy it. Thus he has to reach out to other players. Additionally if one player sees that the table is producing sweetheart deals for Fire resources this month and he is sitting on a lot of Fire tokens, he is incentivized to find the player who drew that opportunity or find a player to make an attempt for it on his behalf.
As for having goods grant bonuses to character actions, I am very much for that. The challenge will be realistically matching them up. Air and Void are easy. Like for instance if a PC consumed a whole Air token themselves, then we could give them a +X to some their certain mental and physical rolls because they are more cultured, centered, and relaxed for this session or for this action. And if they took a whole Void token for themselves we could give them a Void point or temporary Void rank to represent how focused they have been more enlightenment. Fire, Water, and Earth are harder, because they represent tangible goods that come in bulk. It is easy to think about mechanically advantageous thing could arise from a single PC watching a month's worth of theater visits or having a bunch more tea ceremonies. It is harder to think of ways that a single character would mechanically benefit from eating a few extra sacks of rice that month. The best I can think of on the fly is that it grants a bonus if given to your army in the form of an extra card that round of mass combat. Giving your army an extra Earth means that they fortified with enough food to resist an aggressor they get an extra Earth Card. Fire means they got plenty of drinks to be ready to be on the offensive. Etc. Etc.
As for more systematic uses of goods beyond that? That turns in to cost problem. I need to know how our currency works and what our scale is. But I am open to having more uses for tokens, just as long as we stay clear of overload.
PS - Great comment. I was trying to think of ways to make Air and Void more useful without involving Samurai or Samurai units. When you mentioned PC consumption it clicked. Making the consumption of these provide bonuses to PCs directly would make them very valuable.
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