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Jun 22, 2016 15:18:51 GMT -5
Post by Jim ST on Jun 22, 2016 15:18:51 GMT -5
Just to throw out a wacky idea: How about the Founding of Otosan Uchii, rather than the Rebuilding? We can still have the various schools, just say that whoever plays those schools (beyond the most basic) is the "founder" of it. We'd lose the Minor Clans, but we could use their schools as "ronin" schools and make "ronin" more common. Call the Unicorn the Ki-Rin and go.  |
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Jun 22, 2016 17:21:38 GMT -5
Post by Alex ST on Jun 22, 2016 17:21:38 GMT -5
I think Charles asked about doing a Dawn of the Empire game in his survey. Personally I'm against it; I want to play l5r because I want to play in Rokugan, not something that will one day become Rokugan. Part of what makes Rokugan what it is, is its history. Part of the appeal of rebuilding Otosan Uchi is uncovering that history.
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Jun 23, 2016 9:59:15 GMT -5
Post by travislerol on Jun 23, 2016 9:59:15 GMT -5
I *like* both ideas quite a lot, but they're very different concepts. The "dawn of empire" is a discovery, foundational game. Very similar to EH in themes. So, I'm biased against doing that right now, simply because it's very similar to the current game, and I think a distinct change of themes is ideal.
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Jun 24, 2016 15:54:25 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 24, 2016 15:54:25 GMT -5
After giving it some thought, I'm really against any other time period other than just pre-coup for several reasons.
First of which is familiarity - not just for the players, but for me. This will be my first time running an L5R campaign. Even with a large and helpful group such as we have gathered here, I will be a lot more comfortable sticking to at least some material that I don't have to design myself (or have the rest of the team design). I feel like we'll have plenty of a challenge coming up with a world where the Kolat are the primary antagonists (even if Fu-Leng is the final big bad), and having some solid events and material to fall back on will be a big help from avoiding burnout. We know the basic personalities of the NPC's involved with the Scorpion Clan Coup, the Clan Wars, and the 2dot. We won't have to come up with entirely new personalities to play on the Meta Scale, on top of local personalities that will be more involved with the story of Otoson Uchii. Their stories will have to be tweaked a little bit - but approaching the story from the perspective of the Kolat rather than from a Shadowlands Conspiracy will, I think, be an exciting and welcome twist to a familiar setting rather than a completely alien setting.
Next is from a dramatic perspective - one of the Major things of L5R is that fortune favors the mortal man. The rise of Toturi is the single-greatest victory for the Kolat in all of their history (save for their complete infiltration of the Unicorn), and with a game focused on the Kolat and our story gives us the opportunity to build towards that. It also gives us a clear end-game. 2dot will be an epic ending, and with the historical deviation, PC's will be allowed to live it without worrying about other canonical NPC's in that way.
I can still envision a story that doesn't involved 2dot, with an end-game that will revolve around attacking the Hidden temple and battling the corrupted water-dragon. I just feel as if it would be too much to handle.
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Jun 24, 2016 16:22:43 GMT -5
Post by Alex ST on Jun 24, 2016 16:22:43 GMT -5
I'm okay with that because the central part of the game is still addressing the the 2DOT but it's a very different 2DOT. Fortune favors the mortal man because man can change his destiny, but this is a game about what happens when destiny is thwarted. This is a story about hubris and faith: even at the end the players will have to choose to side with unquestionably evil conspirators to contain a far greater evil or set that evil free and trust in destiny to carry them through the day - and the destiny of 2DOT doesn't guarantee success but only a chance at success.
With your permission, Charles, I'd like to write up a timeline for a revised 2DOT incorporating our changes. This timeline would have the changes that happen before game and the big events we can expect during the first few months, as well as the events after those few months that we will need to adapt to the new situation (new due to both our meddling and inevitable player actions).
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Jun 24, 2016 17:12:24 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 24, 2016 17:12:24 GMT -5
Go for it Alex! Though I suppose I should ask if there are any other major objections.
And thanks.
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Jun 24, 2016 22:07:31 GMT -5
Post by travislerol on Jun 24, 2016 22:07:31 GMT -5
Naw, that sounds good...and ultimately, it's a story thing, so I'm going to defer to those of you who are more story-centric, while focusing more on mechanics.
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Jun 25, 2016 6:44:02 GMT -5
Post by Resler ST on Jun 25, 2016 6:44:02 GMT -5
Naw, that sounds good...and ultimately, it's a story thing, so I'm going to defer to those of you who are more story-centric, while focusing more on mechanics. Ditto |
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Jun 25, 2016 10:41:41 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 25, 2016 10:41:41 GMT -5
I'm okay with that because the central part of the game is still addressing the the 2DOT but it's a very different 2DOT. Fortune favors the mortal man because man can change his destiny, but this is a game about what happens when destiny is thwarted. This is a story about hubris and faith: even at the end the players will have to choose to side with unquestionably evil conspirators to contain a far greater evil or set that evil free and trust in destiny to carry them through the day - and the destiny of 2DOT doesn't guarantee success but only a chance at success. With your permission, Charles, I'd like to write up a timeline for a revised 2DOT incorporating our changes. This timeline would have the changes that happen before game and the big events we can expect during the first few months, as well as the events after those few months that we will need to adapt to the new situation (new due to both our meddling and inevitable player actions). One thing that I urge you to consider is Togashi. One of the major threats for the Kolat at this time period were the Dragon - both with the rise of the Kitsuki Investigators, and because of the fact Togashi was around and simply was aware of the Kolat conspiracy. In this version of the story, do we want the Dragon to still be a threat? Or will part of our story offer the Kolat a counter to that threat? |
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Jul 5, 2016 23:39:49 GMT -5
Post by timcoltharp on Jul 5, 2016 23:39:49 GMT -5
Questions/Comments: 1) This timeframe is very significant. If you are going to run in it, then basically, you are doing an alt-history of the Second Day of Thunder. For the players that know anything about the Lore, they will be expecting Black Scrolls, Yogo Junzo, Toturi the Ronin, etc. If we don't plan to actually use any of those elements, then we should probably pick a different, more neutral, timeframe. There are centuries, if not millennia, of "boring" years of Rokugani history where we could set this without referencing existing lore at all. If the main focus is the Kingmaker/City Building piece, then I'd suggest picking a quiet era of history after the Unicorn have returned, but before the Second Day of Thunder and setting it there. It's easy to handwave why no one ever talks about the "Great Earthquake", i.e., the Imperial Histories wrote it out of existence. Note: I get that many players have no real sense of the L5R story, but that's all the more reason to pick a neutral era. 2) If you did plan specifically to re-tell the Second Day of Thunder, then we're going to need a strategy to deal with the long list of very well-known NPCs and decide up front how they will or won't interact with PCs. Ditto the standard timeline of major events. 3) I really like the idea of doing the Kingmaker thing on a much much smaller scale (city vs continent), but we will need to account for the rest of Rokugan. The economy will be very different at this scale and there would likely be no "mass combats" unless we re-scale from "armies" to "gangs." That being said, the "Kingmaker" part of EH, IMO, is the Map Room stuff. I've never liked the idea that one of 3 (or 5) STs was essentially exiled to the Map Room, monkeying on a laptop, for 3/4 of each session. Did you plan on doing map stuff? If so, who's the Map Monkey? (not it!) 4) It would likely also be good to discuss Theme and Mood. This may be something to survey the expected player base on. I'd say EH's themes have been Exploring, Building, and What Does It Mean To Be Rokugani? What themes are we going for? I'd suggest that Honor is a classic L5R theme which was brought up only in a limited way in EH and thus might be a good discriminator. The inherent conflicts between the various tenets of Bushido is a classic theme as well. Duty to Friends vs Duty to Clan vs Duty to Empire is another. 5) I think a strength of EH has been that there have been outlets for the various types of players: skirmishes and mass combats for those who enjoy such things, parlor-style court roleplaying, side quests that work similar to a typical 5-6 player tabletop mod, etc. Do we plan to do the same thing? Are we going to go the route of "Bushi Plots/Shugenja Plots/Courtier Plots" or try to mix and match the character types more? 1) Making Satori a young child (<5) largely solves this problem. All the big names of the Clan War are still making their names for themselves at that point or are children. But if you guys see this a problem, push the earthquake back another generation. Instead of young Satori, make it a young Satori's father. You still have all the late Hantei period corruption, but none of the big names. 2) I personally don't want to retell the Clan Wars. From my experience with City of Stories, I found it very bothersome to work around it. For one thing it is very detailed, so it is very easy to miss something. And the bigger issue I had with it is that the card game competitions are what determined what happened and not any kind of consistent story. There is many a time I would find that had two events that kind contradicted one another and had to pick which one I was going with, and then have players think I did not understand the canon. when you get down to it the canon is kind of mess and the creator's often use the excuse that history and maps are what ever the Emperor says they are. 3) I volunteered to sit out. I don't have time to design plot at this point in my life. But I can come in for 4 hours and run this. The mechanics I am coming up with for the Kingmaker are very streamlined so I and the players don't have to do a lot of work, but it is still very flexible. The fun for me will be testing out my ideas and playing the NPCs that occasionally come up when you manage Kingmaker. 4) I am leaving adventuring plot to others 5) I think Charles has a solid plan to make that happen |
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 6, 2016 0:07:35 GMT -5
It feels like an issue is why set it in the late Hantei period.
When I was discussing the idea with Charles, the reason I suggessed the late Hantei as perfect is because of basically 3 reasons.
1) It is pretty close standard canonical start, so there will not have to be a lot of rewrite or catching players up on history.
2) Except for the rule of the Gozuku, this is the most corrupt period of Imperial history. High levels of corruption among the Imperials helps to explain why clan samurai PCs are being leaned on so much by the Imperial families and allows for a lot more localized intrigue (which lends itself to writing plot). Toturi was very good at cleaning up his court. By the time he was dead, pretty much all that was left was the systematic corruption of Scorpion. Systematic corruption is harder to write plot for because you have take in account how the small corruption the PCs uncover fits and interacts with whole system some centralized plotter has come up with.
For example, in the late Hantei if the PCs uncover that an Imperial official was taking bribes from a Crane and expose, then that can be the end of that plot. That kind of thing was very common and even the Scorpion could not keep track of every bit player in such a corrupt regime. But if that same plot happens after Toturi's purges and clean ups, then we the ST suddenly have to keep track of whether the Scorpion, Kolat, Spider, etc were aware of it, why they were or were not aware of it, and how it fits into their overall schemes if they allowed it.
3) You need to keep the clan leaders occupied elsewhere so that the PCs become the focus of the story and have the freedom to pursue their agendas. A child emperor and regency council do that nicely.
4) There is not a lot of canonical stuff going on.
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That said I think Alex's suggestion of booting this back a generation to having Satori's dad being the the child emperor works out just as well. It is even more of blank canvas and the corruption Empire in need of saving theme is still intact.
I am not so much in favor moving it to the Four Winds period because you run into that problem of having to think about what is going on canonically. Also won't people be expecting a 4 Winds plot there like they would if it was set during the reign of the last sane Hantei?
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