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Jun 9, 2016 10:20:13 GMT -5
Post by Jim ST on Jun 9, 2016 10:20:13 GMT -5
Copied from the EH boards:
Tales of Otosan Uchii is a Kingmaker game revolved around exploring, rebuilding, and controlling different areas Otosan Uchii. It will take place in the Twelfth Century of Rokugan during the Reign of Hantei XXXIX, but before the events of the Scorpion Clan Coup. Rather than being killed by Bayushi Shoju, Hantei XXXVIII was killed in a massive and unforseen earthquake that destroyed Otosan Uchii. As the young emperor has not yet come of age, many of the ranking representatives of the Great Clans have spirited themselves away to Tonbo Roshi to vie for the young emperor's favor. Meanwhile, the Emperor has declared that Otosan Uchii is to be rebuilt to it's former glory. With the more prominent members of the great clans tied up in the Emperor's court, the task of rebuilding the fallen city has fallen to the young Samurai who must make a name for themselves.
Questions/Comments:
This timeframe is very significant. If you are going to run in it, then basically, you are doing an alt-history of the Second Day of Thunder. For the players that know anything about the Lore, they will be expecting Black Scrolls, Yogo Junzo, Toturi the Ronin, etc. If we don't plan to actually use any of those elements, then we should probably pick a different, more neutral, timeframe. There are centuries, if not millennia, of "boring" years of Rokugani history where we could set this without referencing existing lore at all. If the main focus is the Kingmaker/City Building piece, then I'd suggest picking a quiet era of history after the Unicorn have returned, but before the Second Day of Thunder and setting it there. It's easy to handwave why no one ever talks about the "Great Earthquake", i.e., the Imperial Histories wrote it out of existence. Note: I get that many players have no real sense of the L5R story, but that's all the more reason to pick a neutral era.
If you did plan specifically to re-tell the Second Day of Thunder, then we're going to need a strategy to deal with the long list of very well-known NPCs and decide up front how they will or won't interact with PCs. Ditto the standard timeline of major events.
I really like the idea of doing the Kingmaker thing on a much much smaller scale (city vs continent), but we will need to account for the rest of Rokugan. The economy will be very different at this scale and there would likely be no "mass combats" unless we re-scale from "armies" to "gangs." That being said, the "Kingmaker" part of EH, IMO, is the Map Room stuff. I've never liked the idea that one of 3 (or 5) STs was essentially exiled to the Map Room, monkeying on a laptop, for 3/4 of each session. Did you plan on doing map stuff? If so, who's the Map Monkey? (not it!)
It would likely also be good to discuss Theme and Mood. This may be something to survey the expected player base on. I'd say EH's themes have been Exploring, Building, and What Does It Mean To Be Rokugani? What themes are we going for? I'd suggest that Honor is a classic L5R theme which was brought up only in a limited way in EH and thus might be a good discriminator. The inherent conflicts between the various tenets of Bushido is a classic theme as well. Duty to Friends vs Duty to Clan vs Duty to Empire is another.
I think a strength of EH has been that there have been outlets for the various types of players: skirmishes and mass combats for those who enjoy such things, parlor-style court roleplaying, side quests that work similar to a typical 5-6 player tabletop mod, etc. Do we plan to do the same thing? Are we going to go the route of "Bushi Plots/Shugenja Plots/Courtier Plots" or try to mix and match the character types more?
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Jun 9, 2016 11:28:59 GMT -5
Post by Alex ST on Jun 9, 2016 11:28:59 GMT -5
I'd actually been hoping to bring up the same issues in a face-to-face meeting. Suffice it to say that I agree with everything Jim said, and I have a suggestion for a modification if and only if we're interested in moving to a more neutral period.
During the Four Winds era (a generation after the Second Day of Thunder, shortly before the current EH game) Daigotsu, the champion of Fu Leng reveals himself as a kidnapped member of the Hantei family and as such of Imperial Blood. He uses that blood to bypass the ancient wards that protect Otosan Uchi and even the Imperial Palace, laying waste to the city with a Shadowlands army lead by massive demons (the Onisu). Otosan Uchi is not leveled but is effectively destroyed as a place to live and the Imperial capital.
Setting the game in this era would have several benefits:
1) It would give the players a reason why they - the low-ranking samurai - have such an important task as rebuilding and governing Otosan Uchi rather than the Clan Champions and other high muckity-mucks. Those people are all off at the new capital (Toshi Ranbo) but the Emperor's proclamation to rebuild the city means that it still must be done.
2) During the attack large portions of Otosan Uchi became Tainted. This means we could have a game where the Crab actually get to be Crab and do Crab things without being set in Crab lands.
3) The ronin family the Yotsu take responsibility for safeguarding the survivors in Otosan Uchi. This gives a way for ronin PCs to actually be engaged in the game (a rarity in l5r larps).
4) This is an era of growth for minor clans (the Monkey, the Oriole, the reinstatement of the Hare, etc.), families shifting around, new schools developing (technically the Mantis Bushi school is only a 4-rank school before the Second Day of Thunder). This gives a lot more options for character developing.
5) We don't have the Day of Thunder hanging overhead. There's a whole lot of Other Stuff that happens in this era that we can involve or ignore as fits the needs of the game, whereas anything set before the Day of Thunder tends to be pretty focused.
6) One should be very careful starting l5r games with natural disasters since in Rokugan such things are very rarely natural. Much, much more often they are the result of spiritual imbalance, judgement of the heavens, upset kami, etc. Unless we're making the earthquake itself a focus of the game it's a difficult premise to swing (of course, just like the Second Day of Thunder, we can make it a premise).
7) Otosan Uchi in pre-coup times is an important place for courtiers. After Daigotsu's attack it's an important place for everyone. Though no longer the metropolis it once was, it still houses many important temples, is a center of trade, is home to the Tortoise Clan (and all they're smuggling), has a bunch of historical sites that need to be venerated, is populated by scores of heimin and hinin who are never evacuated (and even more eta whom no one thinks to evacuate). Yakuza use the abscondance of the clans to set up operations. It's a place of opportunity.
I'd also suggest that everyone pick up a copy of Atlas of Rokugan which includes an entire chapter just on Otosan Uchi. If possible we should look into picking up a copy of the old Otosan Uchi boxed set if only for the maps (there's a used copy on ebay for $60 plus $20 shipping, though a digital-only copy can be purchased through Drive Thru RPG for $18).
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Jun 19, 2016 10:52:31 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 19, 2016 10:52:31 GMT -5
Sorry it took so long to get back to this. I've been having some internet issues that should be resolved now.
The actual progression of the timeline is intended to be dramatically different than what is currently addressed in lore. The time chosen is well before the assassination of Hantei the 39th, and the story begins with his death, immediately diverging from history as since Hantei the 39th is killed before Bayushi Shoju has the opportunity to kill him. The tentative strategy for dealing with Canonical NPC's is that they're busy trying to influence the next Emperor while they're young. The second day of Thunder should fall towards the end of this game, allowing PC's to participate in that fashion. The benefit of this change in history is that we can address all of the NPC's as freely as we'd like. My goal is to alter the narrative - not the overarching story.
There will be a map. Not sure how it's addressed yet. It may just be a visual map that correlates with a text file, but the goal is to avoid lots of things like moving bunches of units around and managing a bunch of tokens. Ideally, units will have no actually 'movement' value on the map. Instead there will be marked areas that PC's or units they control can explore. Because Otosan Uchii is small enough for any military unit or PC to get around in a single day the idea of 'Unit Movement' doesn't make any sense.
Instead, the idea is that we'll set time when things happen. When people check into game they can explore a map hex. When they do this, we say 'Be at XXX place at XXX time, " for the exploration event, and anyone who shows up participates in that event. Skill draws and unit abilities can alter the time the event happens, or reveal the nature of the event. And because this sort of thing is done when you check in, the ST staff can control how much any individual is required to have.
Have more, will edit as the day goes on.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:44:58 GMT -5
Post by Resler ST on Jun 19, 2016 17:44:58 GMT -5
I want to largely agree with Alex's idea on the setting time frame for multiple reasons.
1: Let the Crab be Crab. This is a consistent issue in most L5R LARPS and tabletops not set in Crab lands or the Shadowlands. It's hard to allow Crab players to feel relevant without some tainty badness causing a major uproar. I love the idea of the aftermath of the Second Day of Thunder because honestly Otosan Uchi got F'ed up from the Shadowlands attack. It gives me the ability to throw in a new minor pit of Fu Leng without needing to stretch the imagination too much.
2: I prefer the idea of not dealing with the overlooming Second Day of Thunder. Before in City of Stories it was always the over arching meta that the players either had to watch unfold, powerless to alter events, or pushed too hard against the staff to try to change them. It caused more friction than it was worth. It's easier on both staff and players to already have it passed and enter a state in which little history is written and/or a lull in meta plot history.
3: Fixing up Otosan Uchi as a major goal for the players gives me a lot to work with when it comes to the map and going forward. Because of this literally the players have the ability to change the future of Rokugan through the deeds that they perform. To my knowledge the Emperor never moves back to Otosan Uchi, they could change that and make the city livable again. Let me quote the Aftermath section of the L5R wiki about the fall of Otosan Uchi.
This can either easily be changed or left alone and the setting can take place quickly after the fall of Daigotsu in 1160 when a new Emperor is decided, but honestly I would rather see it take place soon after the fall of Otosan Uchi. The amount of teleportation/spirit world travel used in the assault on Otosan Uchi could potentially allow the PCs to have a large effect in the final battle with Daigotsu (which takes place in the Shadow Lands). I could easily see the PCs being given the option to join the fray or leave it be and let history be set in stone.
4: I want to see players want to play Minor Clans and Ronin, it brings a very fun social dynamic to the game and a variety. I feel like the current game is increasingly stagnant because it's basically only the major clans that are played, with a very small exception to couple of players. This setting makes it incredibly easy to play many Minor Clans and Ronin families, especially because of the Yotsu.
5: With Otosan Uchi all but destroyed this gives every type of player something to do. Courtiers have to bring in that koku and influence. Bushi have to explore, retake, and defend. Lastly, Shugenja have to purify, close portals, and tend to re-sanctification of everything. No one should feel worthless. They aren't being threatened by an over-looming Second Day of Thunder, they can assist in supporting the final battle with Daigotsu, but for the most part they can focus their attention at the city and their inter-clan politics (especially because the clans are divided between the four winds and who should be Emperor/Empress).
I realize this is probably something we should all discuss in person, but those are my points and small arguments to be made.
Lastly I would like everyone to know I am whole heartily volunteering to be the Map Monkey. I legitimately want to do this and after talking to Travis extensively about this we have come up with several ideas and mechanics to make the entire process MUCH smoother as well as more interactive for the players and STs involved. Some small quick examples being Check-In skills, Office Hours, and a Catacombs Dungeon. There will still be a map, it will be city scale, but the map will run much smoother and I am cutting out about 90% of the ludicrous work that Ian currently has to do because it either doesn't apply to our game or is just stupid extra work for little to no benefit for the players/staff. Mass Combat shouldn't be an issue and we have figured out a good way to handle troops within the city. Also I have been designing a new system that should ultimately be much more balanced and inline with the intent of the tabletop. When I have it completely fleshed out I will propose it to you all in person so if any of you wish to test it you can.
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Jun 20, 2016 13:33:27 GMT -5
Post by travislerol on Jun 20, 2016 13:33:27 GMT -5
Alright, have a number of thoughts, will make a list to order them.
1. Yes, the crab need to be crab. Giving them some significant threat to defend against gives them purpose and plays to theme. It doesn't *have* to be the shadowlands, but that's the easy option to roll with, and I think it works well here. There's value in taking the traditional approach sometimes.
2. I think we should be explicit that the game is a point of departure from official canon. Events in game after game start may not be the same as in canon. This avoids foreknowledge problems, and allows greater player agency. Things like the second day of thunder coming up do offer a constraint, and this is probably a point in favor of starting after that event.
3. Map stuff. I was talking with Resler about splitting out map duties from money. Essentially the "merchant NPCs" person would handle things like resource tokens, koku, rumor sheets...all the physical things that need to be handed about. The map person would handle map movements, set up combat encounters resulting from that(though he may not run them all for time reasons). The role split makes both of those less tedious, and reduces the issue of waiting for one specific person to handle two very large elements of the game. And yes, MUCH smaller scale. The current way of handling influence, together with the scale of the map, creates a very large update job that's simply going to be a large burden on STs between games. Personally, I'd love to be the person handling resources and economy stuff, freeing others up for the larger metaplot.
4. Minor clans and ronin should be an option, albeit with some mechanics to gently provide major clans with the innate resource/standing advantage they should posses. In general, I dislike hard limits of the "you may only have x units" variety, and would prefer to structure this in the variety of "less resources to call upon from home" or similar. I think it feels more realistic.
5. Downtime actions. Processing downtimes is always kind of a difficult thing for STs. I think, for the most part, we can simply abstract these away into actions used at check-in. As Charles suggested, having taken an 'explore' action should result certain results for the player(perhaps roll on a table to see what event occurs), and there can be a list of other actions as well. Train, Explore, Build, stuff like that. Some things might be spread over multiples games of downtime actions, but yeah, handling some things at check-in rather than in downtime is really helpful to both forgetful PCs and busy STs.
6. Do agree that "natural" disasters is something that probably isn't seen as such in-world. Bad events are almost invariably seen as having a driving force behind them, and narratively, I think embracing that is good for building an ultimate goal from day 1. If you're slowly exploring into the city and building up to retake the whole thing from the forces of darkness, that's handy.
7. Theme. This is important, I think. I would like to keep Building as a major theme, and the addition of Honor seems critical. Conflict of duties is another theme I really love, and would love to see embraced. I'm a sucker for hard decisions, and I think L5R supports these really well.
8. Structure. Courtier/Shugenja/Bushi is an option for splits, though other options exist as well. Splitting via theme could be done. As long as opportunities for all three to participate in different ways, I think we're still okay. I do like when it's not obviously "well, this is the shugenja plot, guess I should do that", and it's a little more...confused. I like the setting because I think it's a great place to set up adventures that appeal to more than one of these archtypes.
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Jun 20, 2016 17:29:04 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 20, 2016 17:29:04 GMT -5
I think I made a slight mistake when explaining which Emperor is running things. HANTEI 38th was killed in the Earthquake... not the 39th. So the Emperor who was to become Fu Leng (Sosorii), is a CHILD at this point in time, and the 2nd day of thunder is well away from now.
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Jun 21, 2016 10:29:28 GMT -5
Post by Alex ST on Jun 21, 2016 10:29:28 GMT -5
I think I made a slight mistake when explaining which Emperor is running things. HANTEI 38th was killed in the Earthquake... not the 39th. So the Emperor who was to become Fu Leng (Sosorii), is a CHILD at this point in time, and the 2nd day of thunder is well away from now. I don't think people are misunderstanding that. The point people are making is that any game set in the pre-coup era is going to come across to players as building up to the Second Day of Thunder. As we said on the phone, this is a common theme in a lot of l5r games (roughly half the l5r games I've played have been about 2DOT). I don't know if there's any way to avoid this given when you want to set the game and so we either need to embrace it or make it very clear that this is not the direction we're going. In the Kolat plot I described, the the Emperor will disappear very early which will radically change the nature of the 2DOT, but it's still a Sword of Damocles hanging over everything. The real question is how do you envision using the 2DOT? How does it fit into the story and the game? Is it a backdrop or do you want players as active participants? Do you want PC Thunders? Is there going to be a Scorpion Clan Coup? A Crab march on Otosan Uchi? The Black Scrolls? It's not that we can't use or change these things (as well as a host of others) but they all need to be addressed. |
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Jun 21, 2016 12:23:36 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 21, 2016 12:23:36 GMT -5
Honestly, with the Kolat hook, I'm not particularly interested in 2DOT as a plot device. I also don't mind players thinking that's what the game is about, ESPECIALLY if it's not mentioned or suggested at all as part of the game's premise or theme. I think a statement reminding people that this game begins with a clear deviation from history is important, as well as a disclaimer that future events may or may happen in cannon. The suspense of not knowing what's to come is important, and it prevents people from building FOR an event that think will happen as opposed to building according to their character growth.
I can address each of the other things though.
Scorpion Clan Coup - Shoju doesn't find the Prophecies of Uikku until 1122. If we set the game far enough in advance of this, it won't even be an issue. Alternatively, if as you suggested, the Kolat found the prophecies first, it will likewise not be an issue, as Shoju will never lay eyes on them without being part of a Kolat plot to undermine the Hantei. Changing the nature of the Coup to be a Kolat conspiracy could be a fun thing to play, but it would happen in year 4 or 5 and the game would culminate with a march on Otosan Uchii.
Black Scrolls - A non-issue as the scrolls were only opened following the Coup. I don't see any reason to alter this.
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Jun 21, 2016 12:33:58 GMT -5
Post by Alex ST on Jun 21, 2016 12:33:58 GMT -5
This is still going to come across as a bait-and-switch to most players. Is there a reason we can't move it a hundred years earlier or even fifty? Doing things this close to the Clan Coup feels even stranger if it's not going to be a Clan Coup game. The reign of Hantei XXXVII is one of those blank periods in Rokugani history, but is still close enough to modern times that most things people like about the setting are in play.
I strongly feel that if we're doing things near the clan coup it needs to be a game about the 2DOT. We can undermine that and run a different type of 2DOT but it should still be a 2DOT game (and Kolat capture the very concept of "The Last Hantei" is very different type of 2DOT but it's still 2DOT). If we're doing a completely different story we should run it in a period that supports it.
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Jun 21, 2016 12:46:52 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 21, 2016 12:46:52 GMT -5
Hantei 37th works, I guess? I guess I'm just pretty miffed about the idea of it coming across as a bait and switch. I don't particularly care to manage player expectations - it's an impossible job to plan around what a group of unique individuals might expect. I DO care to give everyone the relevant information regarding the game we're running. There's no reason to assume that the game will be about something it's not advertised as - in my mind that's as ridiculous as metagaming.
But if we strongly feel that it's going to be a problem, pushing it back half a century might not be a problem.
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Jun 21, 2016 13:16:15 GMT -5
Post by Charles ST on Jun 21, 2016 13:16:15 GMT -5
As another consideration, there is a benefit to having this be a 2dot game, in that we already have a clear end-game. We don't have to come up with something new. There will also be a level of familiarity that can be a draw to people, as recognizable NPC's and events come to light.
On the other hand, doing it during the reign of Hantei 37th means that this COULD have happened in Rokugan's history, and afterwards history was rewritten to ignore it, which means we're not technically changing things at all.
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Jun 21, 2016 16:07:54 GMT -5
Post by travislerol on Jun 21, 2016 16:07:54 GMT -5
Player expectation management is important, I think. That level of familiarity will bring in expectations. Yeah, they might not be the same expectations on the part of all players, and they might not even be conscious, but they'll be there. Getting away from well known stuff is an advantage, I think. Definitely one of the strong points of EH was the latitude allowed by having a different continent. This is basically the same thing, only chronologically distant from what's known.
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Jun 21, 2016 18:04:10 GMT -5
Post by Resler ST on Jun 21, 2016 18:04:10 GMT -5
Tagging off of what Travis said, this is another reason I prefer the 4 winds era, because a lot of plot that is rarely played around LARP wise happens within a short amount of time.
If we make the setting post Fall of Otosan Uchi, then we can have both Kolat and meta surrounding the four winds. There is no Emperor at that time, the capital has been moved. All four of the winds agree Otosan Uchi should be rebuilt for the next Emperor, but who will it be, as well as we have a war in the heavens with Fu Leng's release, on top of that the four winds are trying to kill Daigotsu. We have a lot of plot that we can easily play with that people will be expecting, but also have our hidden meta plot of the Kolat in the background, trying to rebuild the city and gaining control over the next Emperor.
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Jun 21, 2016 18:45:06 GMT -5
Post by Alex ST on Jun 21, 2016 18:45:06 GMT -5
Tagging off of what Travis said, this is another reason I prefer the 4 winds era, because a lot of plot that is rarely played around LARP wise happens within a short amount of time. To clarify, this would kick off just after the Four Winds era (which I love but are a giant clusterfuck of tournament results from a metaplot perspective). The Lion's communion with their ancestors could be changed to something like, "After communion with the spirits of our ancestors, we have determined that the Imperial City must be redeemed and rebuilt. Twice now it has served as the site of Fu Leng's rise to power. The Forbidden City itself now festers with corruption and the rest of the city is little better. This is a task beyond that of any one shugenja or even any one clan; we must all come together to save the city." Given that the Toturi III married a Lion so they'd probably be able to convince him of this. What does happen shortly after is the Vacant Throne period during which the Spider make their formal bid to become a Great Clan, the Emperor goes into seclusion then wanders the Empire in search of enlightenment, an enlightenment "craze" sweeps the Empire, a few wars happen, the Emperor is killed in the Shadowlands, the Khan tries to capture the Throne for either the Emperor's brother or himself, the Toturi line dies out, the Jade and Obsidian Dragons are born and become the sun and the moon, and the Iweko dynasty is founded. There's a hell of a lot we can do with that but it's a vastly different Rokugan than what Charles has said he wants to run. |
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Jun 22, 2016 13:12:25 GMT -5
Post by Jim ST on Jun 22, 2016 13:12:25 GMT -5
Sheesh... take a few days off and suddenly this board explodes!
Lots to react to, but I think I will try to pull us up a level. What story are we trying to tell? The main focus of the game is the rebuilding of the destroyed Otosan Uchii. This leads to the question of how was the city destroyed and we've answered with "Earthquake". The next question is Why and we've answered "[X] Dragon inspired by the Kolat". This is all fine. None of it presupposes any specific point in history other than ones where Otosan Uchii was clearly not destroyed.
So, I ask: Why do we want to set this anywhere near the 2nd Day of Thunder? If we're going to throw out Black Scrolls, iconic NPCs, Clan Coup, etc. then what the heck is the point of placing it anywhere near this event? If we're going to go 10 or 20 years before the 2DoT, then why not 50, just to clearly delineate it. Why risk the confusion, the bait-and-switch perception, when there is absolutely nothing gained?
I suggest we start with this: Who is the Big Bad?
If the answer isn't Fu Leng, then we should distance ourselves far from the 2DoT.
If the answer isn't the Lying Darkness, then we should distance ourselves from the post-2DoT era.
I sense some love for Daigotsu as the Big Bad. If so, then the Four Winds era is appropriate.
If the answer is Kolat, then we have many options. We can go into the future beyond the current era of the game; we can go into an alt-history (keep the Toturi line) and set it in the future; we can go into the past (adjusting available clans/schools accordingly).
Once we know the Big Bad, we can easily generate the reasons of why/how the Big Bad got the [X] Dragon to waste the city.
To keep the majority of Charles' idea, I'd suggest we go pre-2DoT but push it up to the reign of Hantei XXXV or earlier. This is totally unmarked territory and leaves us completely unburdened by the Lore of the game. It's easy to imagine that the Kolat Conspiracy fades afterwards (hence why no one remembers they exist by the 2DoT) and that the game will have a Hantei XXXVI once it's over (whoever gets to be Emperor takes that title). The only real loss is Daigotsu and the more recent schools/clans (no Mantis as a great clan, though we can keep the schools as minor clan; no Spider; etc.)
If we want to ditch the 2DoT completely and retain Daigotsu, we can just start re-writing history from after the fall. The challenge is that it's pretty well known how/why the City fell (Daigotsu did it) and that doesn't leave a lot of room for the Kolat. Given this, I'm more in favor of the older start point. It's easy enough to say that, as I think Resler suggested, a "mini Pit" has been opened as a result of the earthquake and give the Crab something to do shutting it down.
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