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Post by Alex ST on Jun 19, 2016 19:30:41 GMT -5
How are we handling irregular mechanics (non-core Schools, alternate paths, etc.)? Things that are considered "Restricted" in the current EH game.
As a GM I'm very leery of such mechanics. While they are often taken for RP purposes or a mechanical need, they are just as often taken by players trying to eek out an advantage over other players. While there's nothing wrong with trying to get an advantage in a competitive game, once everyone starts trying to work the system for such an advantage it creates a situation wherein players who don't know the system, care to work the system that way, or have access to those mechanics are at a disadvantage.
The easiest way to handle such things is to shut them down and simply have an Allowed and Prohibited list, but this shuts down a lot of options (especially if the Allowed list is small). We could also allow everything, but then every player needs access to the alternative mechanics and needs to know how to power build and must have a drive to do so.
Instead, I'd suggest we allow most of the options in the core book, at least in the Book of Fire, though there would be a few exceptions (i.e., disruptive Disadvantages like Lord Moon's Curse. Some Schools simply don't exist at this time such as the Hiruma Bushi School or the Tamori Shugenja School). If a player creates a character using only Allowed mechanics, the player gets an XP bonus equivalent to one or two sessions. This creates an incentive for power gamers to utilize the main material rather than mine the weeds looking for little advantages. It makes it more likely that if a player wants to play a strange School or have access to something unusual they're doing so for character purposes rather than trying to power game. I also like giving an XP reward for doing what we want, rather than a penalty for doing what we don't want, as players are more likely to pursue a reward whereas they'll try and get out of a penalty.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 19, 2016 19:31:15 GMT -5
For that matter, I'd also like us to get a sense of what we would want as allowed, restricted, heavily restricted, and prohibited.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 20, 2016 9:47:24 GMT -5
Seeing as how I'm probably going to end up converting everything myself, I'm not actually against getting my hands on EVERY book and skimming through all of the added mechanics and converting everything we deem allowed. I want the game to be more friendly in allowing players to be able to build unique character builds. I would prefer to see every possible available minor clan and ronin paths along with any and all schools that would exist during the chosen timeline.
That being said, what isn't converted just simply wouldn't be allowed. We wouldn't have to deal with an allowed or restricted list. What is in our LARP book is all you can use, no if, ands, or buts.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 20, 2016 13:45:27 GMT -5
Converting literally everything is ideal, but...it's a lot of work. However, having stuff pre-converted is a great convenience to players trying to build a character. I find it frustrating to build in the current system, knowing that five different things will require approval for various reasons(like, no spells above a given level converted over yet). Last build took me a month and a half to get approved, and the original concept wasn't even weird. That's waaaay too much back and forth between STs and players, just eats time and builds frustration. I would prefer to make it very easy for the vast majority of char creation to be simply a brief check of the players math, with very little approval needed.
Prohibited would mostly be for things that are obnoxious to run in a LARP. Lord Moon's curse is a good example. If it triggers, will it be fun? And if it never triggers, it's mostly a free disadvantage. Might be some clever way to fix it to work, but it's a good candidate for banning.
I am definitely open to changing xp costs for heavily selected options, such as Lucky. If 90% of people are submitting builds with it, I do not think that prohibiting half of them from taking it, and letting the others have it cheaply constitutes balance. It's just underpriced, and needs to cost more.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 20, 2016 17:26:40 GMT -5
Crab Clan Schools/FamiliesFamilies: Hida, Hiruma, Kaiu, Kuni, Yasuki Hida Bushi Hida Pragmatist Hiruma Scout Kaiu Engineer Kuni Shugenja Kuni Witch Hunter Yasuki Courtier Crane Clan SchoolsFamilies - Asahina, Daidoji, Doji, Kakita Kakita Bushi Kakita Artisan Asahina Shugenja Doji Courtier Doji Magistrate??? Daidoji Scout  (I haven't been able to find the founding date for this school). Dragon Clan SchoolsHitomi Kikage Zumi - Hitomi don't exist but the school is timeline neutral and exists under a different name. Hoshi Tsurai Zumi - Hoshi don't exist but the school is timeline neutral and exists under a different name. Kitsuki Investigator Mirumoto Bushi Mirumoto Taist Swordsman Tamori Shugenja - Does not exist Togashi Tattooed Order Agasha Shugenja School - Still a Dragon School Lion Clan SchoolsAkodo Bushi Ikoma Bard Ikoma Lion's Shadow Kitsu Shugenja Matsu Beastmaster - Personally I hate that this school exists as a basic school and would love to see it changed to an advanced school Lion Elite Spearmen Matsu Berserker Mantis clan SchoolsMantis Brawler Yoritomo Bushi - Known as the Mantis Bushi School. Only a four rank school (Yoritomo creates the fifth rank on the Second Day of Thunder). Yoritomo Courtier - Known as the Mantis Courtier School Yoritomo Shugenja - Known as the Mantis Shugenja School Phoenix Clan SchoolsAsako Henshin Asako Loremaster Isawa Shugenja Shiba Artisan Shiba Bushi Scorpion Clan SchoolsBayushi Courtier Bayushi Bushi Shosuro Actor Shosuro Infiltrator - We may want to do stuff with Shadow Brands (see: Lying Darkness in Enemies of the Empire) since they're still associated at this point Soshi Magistrate Soshi Shugenja Yogo Wardmaster Spider Clan SchoolsMost don't exist yet. Exceptions listed below Dark Moto Cavalry Goju Ninja - Only bring in if we really want to do a Lying Darkness plot Ninube shugenja - ditto UnicornIde Emissary Iuch Shugenja Meishodo/Horiuchi Shugenja - Meishodo is a thing but the Horiuchi are a very new family at this point with barely a half dozen members. Moto Bushi Moto Death Priest - Does not exist at this point Moto Vindicator Shinjo Bushi Utaku Battle Maiden Minor Clan SchoolsFuzake Shugenja - Does not exist at this point Ichiro Bushi Komori Shugenja - Does not exist at this point Heichi Bushi - Does not exist at this point Kasuga Smuggler Kitsune Shugenja Morito Bushi - Does not exist at this point Moshi Shugenja - Centipede Clan Suzume Bushi Toku Bushi - Does not exist at this point Tonbo Shugenja Toritaka Bushi - Falcon Clan Tsi Smith - Does not exist at this point Tsuruchi Archer - Wasp Clan Tsuruchi Bounty Hunter - Does not exist until the Wasp join the Mantis Usagi Bushi - Gets wiped out very early in the clan coup. Actually as part of the original Otosan Uchi boxed set storyline Yotsu Bushi - Does not exist at this point except for a single ronin technique Imperial FamiliesMiya Herald Otomo Courtier Seppun Guardsman Seppun Shugenja
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 20, 2016 23:21:41 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of limiting starting advantages and disadvantages not by point but by quantity. For example: you may have up to two Advantages and two Disadvantages. You may select a third Advantage or Disadvantage, but it must be one for which you receive a bonus or discount. If you only get a small number, players will think very carefully which ones they truly need to play their character rather than just going, "Well, I sure want at least one rank of Luck."
Daidoji Scout should exist at this time. Likewise Doji Magistrate.
Here are the next set:
Someone else can do monk and ronin schools if they want
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Post by travislerol on Jun 21, 2016 10:57:50 GMT -5
I like that advantage/disadvantage principle. I'd go 3/3 with a potential extra that you receive a bonus for, to allow a little more customization, but hard numbers give you tradeoffs, instead of trying to justify taking *all* the advantages.
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 5, 2016 21:50:23 GMT -5
I think you can pretty much copy and paste the current restricted list. It covered it pretty well.
I am kind of in favor a max number advantages and disadvantages also. Sometimes I have felt the number of disadvantages or advantages I could get away with was a little silly.
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Post by Charles ST on Jul 5, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -5
I'm not cool with a max number of advantages/disadvantages, but am okay with max xp spent.. With disads in particular, it can damage certain mechanical things like the Bayushi Courtier school techniques. As for advantages, capping at 12 points or so is reasonable. That should allow for any 1 single big ticket item (like some ancestors), or a number of varied advantages. Remember, XP spent on advantages is not spent on other things like rings/skils, and if the system is appropriately balanced, that sort of thing will matter.
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Post by Alex ST on Jul 6, 2016 9:41:29 GMT -5
Re: Bayushi Courtier techniques. Remember, part of the way the School functions is to create disads, otherwise it would be too luck-based on whether your Techniques can go off or not.
The problem I run into with point limits is that 1) they're difficult to remember (it's a lot easier to remember two 5-point Disadvantages than five 2-point Disadvantages) and 2) they encourage min-maxing. If I'm building a bushi then there are somethings that I just should take (Strength of the Earth being the most obvious) unless there's a significant reason not to. People don't take them for flavor but because of the stats. If I get a limited number of Advantages/Disadvantages, then I need to be much more judicious in what I choose and they define my character a lot more. It's much more distinctive being the only bushi with Strength of the Earth than in being one of ten bushi all of whom have it.
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Post by travislerol on Jul 6, 2016 14:17:59 GMT -5
I suspect min-maxing will happen with a flat number cap as well.
I think there's a core issue in that some advantages/disadvantages are just too good relative to others. In EH, for instance, there is literally no character build that wouldn't be better with luck, and thus, a flat number would just result in fewer fluffy choices from the crunchier minded players. You don't really get away from the problem of having a dozen players with luck, a pile of players with sage, and a heap of players with tactician, you just have people who have only that.
Any cap'll have variety issues so long as certain things are waaaay better than other things.
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Post by Charles ST on Jul 7, 2016 11:12:18 GMT -5
I suspect min-maxing will happen with a flat number cap as well. I think there's a core issue in that some advantages/disadvantages are just too good relative to others. In EH, for instance, there is literally no character build that wouldn't be better with luck, and thus, a flat number would just result in fewer fluffy choices from the crunchier minded players. You don't really get away from the problem of having a dozen players with luck, a pile of players with sage, and a heap of players with tactician, you just have people who have only that. Any cap'll have variety issues so long as certain things are waaaay better than other things. Right, but the cheesy people aren't going to pick the fluffy stuff anyway. Giving a cap on the amount of disads deviates from the model we've already been using of rewarding behavior we like instead of trying to punish people for behavior we don't like. Let the crunchy person have luck. They likely won't have Great Destiny/Blessed Betrothal/Blessed of the Realm/etc - stuff that will get them ST attention and plot and the like. That's the trade-off. The PC with luck is going to be good at stuff, but they will have to do a lot of the work to integrate themselves into the larger story. The person with Great destiny - or even interesting disads will be far engaged with the story and the meta. Also, it's people like that who are more likely to become the thunders and whatnot. If you have a great destiny or higher purpose, you're more likely to be chosen by the Heavens when time comes for mortal man to take a stand for itself. Why should the guy who's just good with a sword be any more special than that. And you can have all the luck in the world - but it's still a limited resource. If we present adequate challenges for PC's, and force encounters where people have to make intelligent decisions on when they should use their advantages or not, things like luck won't be an issue. It sounds like there's a fear of letting cheesy people get out of hand, but in my life I've been trying to stop making decisions based on fear, and I'm going to encourage we don't do it as ST's. There are 6 of us. SIX. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to deal with a handful of players who are super-cheesy by challenging, rather than nerfing them. And I promise, what they're looking for is a reasonable challenge. If they're looking just to kill fools and have no consequences, this simply is not the game for them, and we should just make that clear. |
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Post by travislerol on Jul 12, 2016 7:44:20 GMT -5
I'm not so worried about punishing people as I am about encouraging diversity. When you have 5 PCs roll in with nigh identical builds, that's...odd. This happens because some advantages are really good relative to others. This is, in part, because the current system translated some stuff oddly. The same numbers don't always result in the same numerical bonus. Also, traits are mostly garbage, so things that give flat bonuses more cheaply end up being very potent, as do rerolls. Fixing the core system reduces this issue, but does not entirely remove it.
Not really an issue of fear, just one of trying to make a number of options interesting, even within a certain archtype. I love seeing players using different styles, rather than "oh, you're building a general, you HAVE to take tactician". Hard decisions are good.
I would also be open to some form of post-character acquisition of advantages that make sense(not large/small and stuff, usually, but stuff like tactician, absolutely).
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(I haven't been able to find the founding date for this school). 