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Post by Alex ST on Jun 19, 2016 19:51:05 GMT -5
As a kingmaker game, what types of resources do we want players to have? Something the scope of EH is probably more vast than we need (or want to deal with).
The Way of the Daimyo system in Emerald Empire may be a good place to start and is where I'd at least like to begin. For those without the book, a quick synopsis:
Emerald Empire introduces two new Advantages, The World of the Daimyo and The Daimyo's Path. The former allows the character to start down one of six paths (ambassador, governor, keeper of the temple, master sensei, merchant patron, and warlord) and gives a number of Duty Points towards that end. The latter allows access to the upper echelons of the path and gives more Duty Points. Duty Points can be spent on the path's features. To whit:
Ambassador - Points give allies (musicians, explorers, etc.) who give bonuses in social combat.
Governor - You gain a holding (town, village, etc.) which points then enhance (farms, magistrates, etc.).
Keeper of the Temple - You gain a temple which points enhance and allow you to create kiho (can also be used to create spells).
Master Sensei - You gain a dojo which points enhance allow you to create kata (can also be used to create Paths and Schools)
Merchant Patron - You gain a business which gives you income.
Warlord - Points give you military troops (includes new mass combat rules).
It is also suggested that certain advantages, Schools, and Paths should award Duty points towards specific ends (i.e. Akodo War College gives points towards Warlord path).
What I like about this system is that it's ready made for a game of this scale. Duty Points become the main currency players are after, though admittedly not one they're likely to trade with each other (though they might be willing to trade specific features). We can easily use Duty Points as rewards for quests and the like. I could also see a system that allows players to convert koku to duty points as well. The system is intended for PCs between status 4 and 7 so our game probably falls in the right range.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 20, 2016 10:33:23 GMT -5
Everything you have listed Alex is similar in some ways to what Travis and myself have been compiling. We both love the Koku/Influence concept and have grown from there. The issue that the current EH game has is that all of the resources are easily available to everyone. Now that we are back at home we can do something more like what City of Stories had and have every clan have a special resource only they can produce. For example you might recall the Dragon Clan could only acquire Gold from home during the old City of Stories LARP which each other clan had something else special that only they could produce, as well as each clan "wanted" specific resources for trade with home to obtain trade goods (koku or whatever else). The purpose of this multi clan resource system would be that each form of structure to be built would require X amount of A, Y amount of B, and Z amount of C. This would require the clans to talk to each other and trade as well as hunt for specific resources, wheeling and dealing. We can design a list of different structures that can be made as well as the requirements to make them and this would be similar to units as well, specialty units would require more than just influence to obtain.
So having something like for example a Master Sensei would represent having a dojo which would allow you the ability to create kata using whatever resources we set up. Having a merchant patron would represent having a trading post which would open more avenues to get rarer resources for your clan (resources that perhaps a clan you are at war with has access to that you need). I am not opposed to a Duty Point esque system, but I feel like Influence kind of covers that. We can use Influence for a LOT of things, and we should since it seems like its a really good replacement for the current Glory system in EH.
All of this is another good topic to discuss in person, but I can easily finish compiling a mock system so we can all review it later.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 20, 2016 12:51:46 GMT -5
I have a draft google docs for the skeleton of this on here: docs.google.com/document/d/1nbWkE4x2dselAR7cMwLYkndeFh0G3unosWJQs0kzcbI/edit?usp=sharingFeel free to add comments in another color. I don't yet have all the various character options, such as advantages, etc that could interact with this, but in theory, those would exist. "Influence" is essentially the currency that acts as "duty points", and you can acquire all manner of advantages from home through the expenditure of influence. It *can* be freely traded with other PCs, though. So, someone can totally squander their influence away, which could be amusing. Other resources are more specialized(except koku, which is generic, but socially awkward to trade). I specifically want each clan to have something economic that they are particularly good at, and that other clans will need at least occasionally. In the current game, many resources, there's little reason to trade. Fish, for instance. If you want more fish, you just construct settlements to make more fish, and basically never trade(and everyone has endless piles of fish). I also would like to see specific options for the more mercantile players. Dabble in the low skills, etc, tradeoffs for honor, etc. Things like dojos, temples, etc are cool building options. I'll compile an example list of the essential buildings that should have default construction rules, and we can toss around advantages and stuff that they'll provide. Minor clans should have comparatively limited access to specialized resources, and will have to rely on trade with major clans, I think. Part of minor clan life. |
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 20, 2016 23:03:13 GMT -5
I'll admit most of the implications are going over my head right now (seriously exhausted!) but the concept itself seems valid. I do have one major concern and that's that clans get a significant bonus for having more players. They get more opportunities to make skill checks, each player gains a resource, etc. Now while there's good reason to create incentives for people to get their friends to play, I don't like the idea of whichever clan has the most players wins. Do you have any plans for dealing with this?
There are several ways it could be dealt with, from giving people incentives to play different clans (pooled starting XP does this very well) to giving resource game bonuses to clans with fewer players.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 21, 2016 10:55:30 GMT -5
It's a good point, and I want some kind of catch-up mechanic in play. Haven't really worked out exactly what yet, but I want having more players to *feel* like an advantage, even if there are some compensations there.
Probably going to have flat starting resources for each clan. That doesn't fully address it, but I think it makes sense.
Manipulating average glory is easier in a small clan, and you are less likely to incur penalties for low honor chars. In EH, it's probably optimal to be a solo daimyo, max out glory, and never, ever go to mass combat(because that causes like 80% of deaths, and now basically gives zero glory). This is kind of boring, though, so I want to have a difference balance of power.
Maybe glory awards are adjusted for clan size to some degree? A solo warrior accomplishing something is usually more impressive than a large team.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 21, 2016 12:22:21 GMT -5
It's easier to max such things as a solo daimyo but it's also easy to crash and burn. Having a group gives a cushion. (I've had long discussions with Wesley about mass battle and that the current system really incentivizes people not to act as samurai: avoid mass battle and if you must go hunker down in the reserves. I'd like to fix this but that's a whole other thread which we don't need to start just now)
One way to get clans to diversify is to create more incentives to join clans with fewer members. For a high-rank game I'd suggested giving each clan a pool of starting XP; it could either be evenly divided among all starting samurai or they could allocate it, but that creates a big mechanical incentive to join clans with fewer members (and also makes those members more competitive against more numerous clans). Not sure how that could be adapted for a game that starts with low ranks.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 21, 2016 14:18:20 GMT -5
So, I was hoping Tim would have posted about this by now, as I specifically pulled him onto this team for the Economic and Kingbuilder aspects - as that's his specialty and I have seen him be really good at it, and I have heard good reviews about it's handling in the City of Stories. I'm sure he has some different ideas, so keep that in mind before we get to far ahead with the resource system.
It was my intention to base influence around a combination of Status and Glory. I do like the addition of honor into the mix. It was also supposed to be a resource that cannot be hoarded - you get what influence you have at the beginning of the session and lose it at the end.
As for handing out influence by clan... let's not? The game is supposed to be about individual Samurai making a name for themselves in a big city - not the great clans vying for power - at least, not directly. If we disseminate influence by group, I'd prefer that it be by district instead, which means at game 0, PC's will come in with a minimal amount of influence (let's say 1), and it will remain that way until they take control of a district to generate additional influence. It's at THAT point when the game will have 'leaders' as we do in EH, and it will be based on District, rather than clan.
Thoughts?
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Post by travislerol on Jun 21, 2016 15:59:36 GMT -5
Fortunately, this game should make mass combat less critical. I can fix the mass combat system pretty easily, I think, but in general, it *should* be significantly less important than in EH, because of scale.
Building influence seems like something you should be able to do. For some clans, like Crane and Scorpion, calling upon that one time, long ago, seems very appropriate. So, I'm not sure if having it expire at end of game makes sense from that perspective. Is there a mechanical function it serves?
Influence by individual samurai instead of clan is totally viable. I would like for *something* to be clan specific, because clans should have some importance, but it doesn't have to revolve around influence.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 21, 2016 16:15:42 GMT -5
Building influence seems like something you should be able to do. For some clans, like Crane and Scorpion, calling upon that one time, long ago, seems very appropriate. So, I'm not sure if having it expire at end of game makes sense from that perspective. Is there a mechanical function it serves? That actually might be a good way to adapt courtier techniques. Maybe the Crane have some way to save Influence from game to game? |
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 21, 2016 16:17:01 GMT -5
Building influence seems like something you should be able to do. For some clans, like Crane and Scorpion, calling upon that one time, long ago, seems very appropriate. So, I'm not sure if having it expire at end of game makes sense from that perspective. Is there a mechanical function it serves? Ideally it should be distinctly different in flavor and in practice from Koku. At the moment it works mechanically the same way as koku (I.E can be hoarded, can be used to buy the same things, etc.) it's functionally no different. You are right that a favor from a long time ago should be able to be used to do X... but favors are favors and influence CAN represent favors, but not necessarily. It's more about your social weight. You don't get any more influential just because time passes, and influence doesn't increase on it's own, which Koku can if invested correctly. |
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Post by travislerol on Jun 21, 2016 16:18:11 GMT -5
So, where does Influence ultimately go? I mean, sure, players trade with each other, and perhaps particular plots will utilize it, but is there a generic end of session thing that players can spend it on?
If it expires, we need a reason for them to pursue it in general.
Koku is primarily different from Influence in that dealing directly in koku can be dishonorable. Also, Koku and Influence are not necessarily interchangeable or identical. Asking your lord for a trainer might require Influence, whereas offering him Koku to buy the service might be a problem. Conversely, the shady underworld gambler will probably only take bets in koku.
I don't think we should have a favor system in addition to the other currencies. Favor cards are kind of clunky, and in practice, favors are rarely used. |
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 21, 2016 16:34:50 GMT -5
My thought is that it would be necessary because you just CAN'T by most things with Koku. Samurai units, for example. Your influence represents that you're important enough at home to earn the command of a Samurai unit for a single month. But you can't simply spend Koku to BUY most (if any) clan Samurai units under normal circumstance because it would be a major loss of face and breach of etiquette to buy their services. Influence should be the primary form of currency in the game, and Koku should be secondary.
Reading back on this though, I'm not convinced myself that it is a commodity that shouldn't be able to be saved. But it should degrade, or there should be things in place that cause influence loss or something. There's got to be a reason to constantly be looking out for it - stagnancy and hoarding of influence aren't going to be good for the game.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 21, 2016 16:40:29 GMT -5
Players should be encouraged to spend, 100% yes.
Upkeep costs for units are good. Perhaps a general theme of "units are usually recruited with Influence, but maintained via Koku"? That seems like it would be a good fit for the fluff, since, barring Ronin, etc, Influence feels like the right way to get more samurai assigned, but on the flip side, it's expected that you'll keep your men well supplied. Demanding more troops than you can support seems like a legitimate problem to have arise. Or vice versa, having plenty of money, but not enough influence to wield it entirely effectively.
Maybe each player can keep up to a certain cap of influence tokens? Cap governed by status or honor or something? Whatever makes sense/needs to be more important. Some amount that is generous, but isn't "sock it away forever".
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 21, 2016 16:51:02 GMT -5
Units purchased with influence and maintained with Koku is absolutely the plan. I'm in favor of an influence cap as well, though I don't think I would be the best person to figure out how to calculate that. Based on status seems reasonable, especially if the amount of influence you generate is based on glory/honor.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 21, 2016 19:11:27 GMT -5
I honestly think Influence should be a clan pool, there is no real reason to have personal influence when by default samurai are all about bettering their clan. I think the current koku system in EH based on the average Glory of the clan works well as a means for influence. Different calculator of course, but take the average glory of the clan and there is your influence system.
Koku is easy as well, take the koku starting package for each samurai in a clan and get the average. This makes something that most L5R games ignore become incredibly useful, it also lets us use the wealthy advantage. Then we throw that number into another calculator to get us the koku acquired each game at a base, then add the koku gained via income of places they have built within the city.
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