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Post by travislerol on Jun 28, 2016 14:08:31 GMT -5
I think no military/no mass battles would be easier to run, but I think players will demand them. And given the militant nature of the setting, it's hard to reasonably remove them entirely. But I'd be very cheerful with getting them as far from center stage as possible.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 28, 2016 14:25:01 GMT -5
I think they're part of this type of game but in a more abstract sense than they've been implemented. A lot of us (myself included) like designing systems and playing with game mechanics but I think we're A) reinventing the wheel here and B) adding complexity for complexity's sake.
At this point we're discussing military units for two purposes: to use in mass battle and to explore the city. The former, we have all decided, should be a rare occurrence. The latter, most of us seem to agree, should be done by PCs and not by their units. As such I'm inclined to agree with Jim that we don't need a separate unit system. Again, I highly recommend people check out the Way of the Daimyo system in Emerald Empire. It works, it's simple, it's already integrated into the l5r system, and it does everything we need it to without doing anything we don't want it to. Why not just use that?
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 28, 2016 14:55:29 GMT -5
I'll have a look at it - but the reason why to have military units is because they're almost always a necessity to run a KINGMAKER game, which is what was desired, and what I set out to run.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 28, 2016 15:15:59 GMT -5
I'll check it out for possible cribbing, but my understanding was that it was a path system, which lends itself to a certain linearity in character development. Collect the points, level up, become better at Your Thing. Which...kind of already exists in Experience. It seems like a pointless duplication of that. Maybe okay in a tabletop game, where you're not worried about variety between different people on the same path, necessarily, but I think it has weaknesses in translating to a larp. We can do things thematically kind of like that, but locking people onto a path is going to significantly reduce variety.
I also specifically want resources to be mostly tradable. That encourages PC interactions heavily, and gives players something to do while hanging out in court. Looking at EH, we've got multiple resource examples to look at. The influence system was mostly pretty good, I think, and encouraged player interaction until they ran dry. On the flip side, we have fish, which was always just...awkward. At first they were horded, but after a cap was instituted, they most became just ignored. You made enough settlements, theaters, etc to support your troops, but trading was just never worthwhile, and excess was mostly given to peasants or wasted.
To make a resource support trading, it has to be something everyone needs, but not something everyone has access to. This, not combat, is the meta-reason for resources. In turn, they have to be useful for something. For everyone, in a predefined way, not something only someone who thinks up something really clever for the STs can utilize. Now, plot can provide economic sinks, but for consistency, you generally want routine sinks that players can save for. Buildings can serve as this, to some degree, as can units.
Also, some players just do want to amass armies. It's a genre/expectation thing, given how warlike samurai culture is. We can abstract it heavily, but I don't think we can remove it entirely. And if it's there, it might as well be a resource sink, it just doesn't need to be super detailed.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 28, 2016 15:24:05 GMT -5
Yes and no. Yes the first way most players get the Duty Points that make the system work is by buying the World of the Daimyo Advantage but there's no reason that has to be the only way. The system encourages awarding Points for roleplaying. There is absolutely no reason we can't award Duty Points as a result of in-game actions including explorations, completing quests, etc. Likewise points can be traded as can the features they award. It's an easy system to mod for a game like this.
Seriously, take a look at it. I think you'll find it's a better and more flexible system than you expect.
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Post by Jim ST on Jun 28, 2016 15:27:01 GMT -5
I'm all for units, just mostly not military units. Units to clear rubble (peasants? eta?) Units to administer hexes (merchants, monks, priests, artisans, etc.) Units to spy on other's holding or even sabotage them. Maybe initially "military units" are actually yojimbos and guards who defend hexes but when we ramp up the Clan Wars, then they are more "offense" oriented and we open the vistas of mass combat. AFter all, no PC will have the Status or ability to "Declare War" or openly attack other PCs in a military fashion (as opposed to duels, skirmishes, etc.) for some time, if ever. Once they've accumulated some Status, started gaining territory, etc. we can have Clan X declare war on Clan Y and let the PCs be involved at that point. Heck, they can even influence which clans fight which with their diplomatic actions (or scandals).
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 28, 2016 15:36:03 GMT -5
AFter all, no PC will have the Status or ability to "Declare War" or openly attack other PCs in a military fashion (as opposed to duels, skirmishes, etc.) for some time, if ever. Once they've accumulated some Status, started gaining territory, etc. we can have Clan X declare war on Clan Y and let the PCs be involved at that point. Heck, they can even influence which clans fight which with their diplomatic actions (or scandals). Keep in mind that most warfare in Rokugan is limited. Full-scale entire clan vs. entire clan is very rare (and is why historians can get away with calling a conflict-filled period of history the "thousand years of peace" despite the massive bloodshed that accompanied it). In fact, it's one of the main purposes of declaring war: it tells your opponent who exactly they're at war with (which can be very important if your lord isn't so happy about your actions). A PC with troops under his command can declare war but only for himself and his vassals, at least until he gets enough Status to involve more people or convinces his superiors to join in. We should probably talk about this in the campaign guide. |
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Post by travislerol on Jun 28, 2016 15:54:01 GMT -5
I do think some brief setting overview thing is definitely in order. Explaining traditions of limited war, etc. The occasional spat over a particularly desirable bit of turf is reasonable, with the proviso that it's technically administering Imperial territory. A fine distinction, perhaps, and one that definitely will not preclude all possible conflict.
Using influence to affect larger goings on sounds like a good deal of fun. Obviously, a very Big Thing to work towards, but could make for some really cool stories.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 28, 2016 16:10:31 GMT -5
Units
My idea was to create all sorts of units and give them unique flavor and purpose, and to give all units non-military implications. I don't like 'vague' units. I'd like my units to be able to do what they should based on their flavor (Ninja Units should be able to sneak and poison people, Yoritomo Bushi should be able to deal with rough terrain easier, etc), so I don't like units that are just numbers, and don't encourage them.
I can understand the action economy of exploration being a problem, and a fair thing to want to avoid. But if we're not going to let units do things that units could reasonably do because we'd prefer players to do it, it's better off to not have them at all. If I have a unit of Bushi, and you tell me I can't use them to clear rubble or go beat down a gang, I will be pissed.
Further, if you tell me that:
A) I have a unit of crab Samurai, but none of them are Hiruma therefore they can't do sneaky things, I will be pissed - especially if there's no other option.
B) Tell me my Hiruma Bushi can't do sneaky things, and is just a weaker version of the Hida bushi without any other bonuses or modifiers, I will be pissed.
Certain units giving skill bonuses to buildings/people in a certain hex sounds mechanically viable, but it only makes sense mechanically. No matter how un-special, 10- or even 5 magistrates should be able to do more than a single PC can do. If we use units, we can't half-ass them. They should be detailed and have a distinctly different flavor from each other that's expressed in more ways than just numbers.
Also, part of the mitigating factors to prevent people from spamming units and having them do all of the exploration/mapwork is RARITY. Influence isn't going to be as prevalent in this game as Koku in EH. KOKU isn't going to be as prevalent. Units should be pricey in regards to influence - we're not looking at a single person buying 50 ashigaru at a time. Each purchase of a unit or structure for PC's should require consideration. No one should have more than a handful of units at a time.
Way of the Daimyo
As I read way of the Daimyo, I like it more and more. I'm concerned about forcing players to learn it (though, I imagine only the ones really excited about kingmaker will care to, and they prob won't have an issue). What immediately stands out to me is that it's an Opt In system. You can invest in it early by purchasing World of the Daimyo, or you can earn your first duty points as a result of story, and spend them (or not) as you wish. It offers a lot of options for world builders without getting in the way of your folks who just like to dress up and RP.
I'm concerned about the social mass combat thing - it's a major part of how the system works, but in a Larp setting, it's not really appealing. But I don't think overall I'd have a problem just using the system.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 28, 2016 16:33:52 GMT -5
It's not that they can't be useful, it's that there's a danger in having them too useful relative to players, particularly at player things. If a group of ashigaru can reliably beat down a PC, then what's to stop you from doing just that? Rarity is all well and good, and I'm in agreement on smaller scale, but if units are generally more important than individuals, even rarity won't stop people from using them to remove or replace PCs.
This is one reason I suggested smaller unit sizes than EH. It's much easier to justify five ashigaru being weak relative to a PC than it is, say, twenty ashigaru(or whatever EH unit sizes are now). That, together with small numbers of units, helps keep the scale PC-centric.
It's not that units shouldn't be able to do things, it's that they don't necessarily have to be map things. A couple, sure, but EH had a number of units, and a lot of the specialist units were not actually documented in the rules. It got...complicated, to the point where people are sometimes arguing over how the mechanics work in order to then argue over what they're doing. Given that we do not need as much mass combat, we shouldn't need as much weight in rules there.
Keep in mind that actual uses of troops in EH were largely for mass combat, which *usually* took place in the map room. That isn't likely to work. So, we need things to be simple enough that they can largely work while not looking at the map, and not in mass combat.
I believe we can still have unit differentiation while getting away from heavily keyworded, map centric abilities. Consider, if instead of merely ordering a unit of Bushi to do sneaky things for you, YOU did the sneaky things, but having appropriate troops supporting you provided a bonus of some kind. The actual RP is still happening around the PC for the most part, and he or she is the center of the story, but say, you have to sneak past fewer troops because your unit is providing a distraction elsewhere(and obviously, specialized troops are better at providing assistance in their area of expertise).
This sort of style keeps troops useful, distinct(we can simply list what each is good at), but avoids making troops an action economy multiplier. Instead of PCs being directly compared to NPCs in terms of power, it's a more cooperative thing. You get units to help you pursue your goals. Your skills are still relevant(which makes sense...a leader who understands stealth could better utilize stealthy units, yes?).
Social Mass Combat is...a little worrisome. Adding a second kind of mass combat sounds like a source of headache. Not saying it can't happen, but...I don't really have much enthusiasm for adding another complex system for that.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 28, 2016 17:12:15 GMT -5
Social combat is a weird concept. On the one hand, it seems unfair if fighting characters can affect social characters with their abilities since swords are universal but social characters can't affect fighting characters. On the other hand nobody likes to feel that they've lost agency over their character and a lot of the social abilities can come across as mind control. The current By the Fan system in EH does a decent job but has two main drawbacks: it can be very time-consuming and players can readily ignore it by just accepting a few consequences that they may or may not even care about, which means that those techniques often stop affecting other PCs right at the point one really wants those techniques to have their most profound effect (see: Miya Naomi and Togashi Tenguyen this past month).
To be clear, while I like most of the Way of the Daimyo systems in EE, the Ambassador (social combat system) is a mess. When I run it I usually modify it to allow the allies it creates to function as per the Allies advantage and provide appropriate assistance to the Ambassador (i.e. a Nakodo ally can help you research family lines as well as providing the debate bonus). I wouldn't mind keeping the BtF system but change the consequences from a simple Glory less to something more dynamic. Maybe each Courtier School inflicts its own unique consequence on you for leaving the debate beyond the normal Glory loss (i.e. Bayushi courtiers inflict Infamy, Yasuki steal Koku, Lion exacerbate Glory loss, Crane give a social penalty, Otomo inflict Sworn Enemy, etc.)? Should we switch this to another thread?
For troops I'd like to focus on bonuses. Any unit can be used to clear rubble, suppress dissent, investigate crimes, etc., but some units are better at it. Scorpion units get a bonus to stealth (or just auto-succeed). Kitsuki magistrates give you a bonus to Investigation if they're operating in your area. Doji courtiers give you a bonus to persuade the local populace.
Guys, I've got it! Units don't do things for you. They give you a bonus to doing those things yourself!
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Post by travislerol on Jun 29, 2016 10:38:48 GMT -5
Pretty much what I'm going for Alex. =) With the grudging exception of the occasional mass combat as something that probably needs to be supported.
By the Fan seems to be *mostly* workable, though I think a thread specifically to discuss social rules strikes me as a great idea!
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Post by Jim ST on Jun 29, 2016 12:19:15 GMT -5
Further, if you tell me that: A) I have a unit of crab Samurai, but none of them are Hiruma therefore they can't do sneaky things, I will be pissed - especially if there's no other option. B) Tell me my Hiruma Bushi can't do sneaky things, and is just a weaker version of the Hida bushi without any other bonuses or modifiers, I will be pissed. Maybe it's a "Rokugani Your Way" thing, but as I understand Rokugan there are MANY samurai who would refuse to "do sneaky things" because doing sneaky things is dishonorable. They would commit seppukku rather than do them. That's what make Hiruma Scouts special. If you can order any bushi do do what they do, then there is nothing special about them (other than maybe they're better at it.) The things that the various school do makes them unique. There is nothing mechanically stopping an Akodo Bushi from using a Tetsubo, except years of tradition and training. An Akodo Bushi just wouldn't do that, or if they did, there would need to be some serious backstory to explain it and there would be consequences. If you are the Crab Daimyo and you want sneaky troops, you use Hiruma Scouts. You could order your Hida Bushi to sneak around, but there should be consequences for that. If you are the Lion Daimyo, you don't/shouldn't want sneaky troops. If you did, you'd be dishonoring your clan and you'd likely need to use ronin on the down low. The broader point is that Units, like Resources, should be unique and not available to everyone. Some clans just don't get to be sneaky. Others just don't get to wear Heavy Armor. Some have few, if any, capable administrators or diplomats. Some have few, if any, capable merchants or sailors. Small unit sizes (no more than 5 ppl per unit). Units add bonuses to PC actions: they don't replace them (except for tasks which PCs don't want to do, i.e., clearing rubble). That's my suggestion (echoing others). |
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 29, 2016 16:24:04 GMT -5
What you're saying makes sense, to a point, there are still aspects that need addressing.
But what happens when the guy playing a Hida Bushi needs scouts to investigate something? It's well outside of his skillset (in fact, it's almost counter to it), so it's not reasonable for him to try and get a 'bonus' on the draw and go himself. It's much more efficient for him to just have the units do the job.
Do you force him to find another PC? What if there aren't any Hiruma Bushi PC's? Do you force him to then find another PC with those particular skills? How do you make it make sense to him, when he has units within his clan who will do it without favors, etc?
I'm not trying to be an ass, just making sure we're looking at the whole picture.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 29, 2016 16:39:28 GMT -5
Do you force him to find another PC? What if there aren't any Hiruma Bushi PC's? Do you force him to then find another PC with those particular skills? How do you make it make sense to him, when he has units within his clan who will do it without favors, etc? I understand your point but I'm absolutely in favor of creating incentives for the solution that requires interacting with other players rather than shifting numbers on a spreadsheet. |
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