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Post by Alex ST on Jun 21, 2016 20:13:54 GMT -5
I honestly think Influence should be a clan pool, there is no real reason to have personal influence when by default samurai are all about bettering their clan. This is very much a "Rokugan Your Way" issue and one we should decide. To be clear, clans (and for that matter families and even the Empire itself) are not modern nation states. Rokugani do not consider themselves citizens of their Clan. Akodo Akira is loyal to the Lion but it is not an ephemeral concept of loyalty; it is rooted in a very personal loyalty to Akira's lord and through his lord his family daimyo and through his family daimyo to the clan champion and through the clan champion to the Emperor, but if the Emperor commands one thing and Akira's lord commands another he is supposed to obey his lord. This why when a daimyo is killed the men underneath him often become ronin and lose their clan affiliation. This is why when it is revealed that the Emperor is possessed by Fu Leng the Lion continue to serve him: because Matsu Tsuko will not break her oath and they are loyal to her (it is also why Tsuko commits seppuku before the Second Day of Thunder: to free the Lion from their service). Rokugani armies do not serve their clans, they serve high-ranking members of their clan. That is what large stipends are for: to care for the troops under your command (this is also why I support Influence for recruiting troops and koku for maintenance). But as Lion clan champion if I want to raise a fighting force to annihilate the Crane (we will crush them!) I don't raise an army for the clan and appoint a capable Akodo or Matsu to lead them. Instead I find a samurai whose previous service and loyalty has merited generalship, give her a large stipend, and she raises a fighting force. When we invade the Doji lands (they should fall on their swords rather than face us for their deaths will come with equal certainty!) I order my vassals to bring their troops to invade. All of that is personal influence. Now if we want to run a more modern Rokugan then we can absolutely do that but it is a departure from canon. The main benefit of running a more modern Rokugan is that it's a lot simpler. Players understand nations and try to conceive of the clans as such. It makes sense to most people. It also means they have to function as a clan; in EH Hoshi Yorokobi had to fight as Tamori Nakamura wanted since he couldn't exactly take his troops and go home. On the other hand, if we run a more traditional Rokugan we get to tell a more traditional samurai drama. We get to increase infighting in the clans. We get to involve more players in the map game. We get to involve more players in the quest for Influence. And we get stories about what happens when those influential samurai fall. Has anyone ever heard of the forty-seven ronin? |
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Post by travislerol on Jun 22, 2016 8:09:18 GMT -5
I'm strongly in favor of individual resources, including influence. Yes, they might well choose to use their influence to better the clan(and I agree, family over clan is appropriate), and perhaps, socially speaking, they SHOULD, but players ought to be allowed to make mistakes. Or to decide differently from what they "should". If they all choose to support the clan together, no problem! But it gives that decision weight. It's no different than throwing bandits at them. Yes, of COURSE the correct decision is to defeat them, but the actual doing of Samurai duties is what makes it feel like it does. While I'm a sucker for mechanically or morally hard decisions, a lot of things have a socially favored way to act that's well known to all involved, yet is still worth simulating.
Also, mechanically, I don't want the map game to involve just the Daimyos. Setting all that up is a significant amount of work, it should be something that *any* player can be involved in, and will affect them in turn. Making things too clan-centric concentrates a lot of decisions on the Daimyo...which may limit available opportunities to other PCs. Sure, they can always commit protest seppuku or something, but I'd like a range of less drastic options for pursuing individuals goals, including those that may not align very well with Daimyo goals.
I also don't want the map to be entirely combat-centric. Sure, sure, you have turf, and you can make troops and stuff, but I think we should list out rules for building other stuff as well. Players seem to want to explore making Sake Works, Temples, etc. It seems reasonable that they should have defined costs and benefits, just as militaristic stuff does. So, maybe this player wants to use their influence to collect famous teachers and make the world's greatest library/dojo/etc...Sweet! I think that's a valid goal that we can easily support. Some sort of benefit for having a bunch of related stuff. Maybe library-guy gets a bonus to certain lore checks or something. So, different players will end up supporting the clan in different ways, that complement their character. That gets you a nice rich, complex world, where the types of characters you have matter a great deal from a mechanical perspective.
Still futzing with example mechanics for that myself.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 22, 2016 8:46:10 GMT -5
While under normal circumstances I am not against people playing the game they want and having their own influence and what not, it makes the game incredibly more dynamic. My issue will be the logistics of running the map for EACH INDIVIDUAL CHARACTER. I can perfectly understand why the current EH is set up the way it is, so that they have much less to handle and coordinate. I feel this is a much bigger issue that we need to decide and perhaps table as a topic for an in person group meeting. I'm sure we can find a good middle ground though, just requires work and debate.
Do you want the map monkey to go insane? Because this is how you get an insane map monkey.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 22, 2016 9:25:14 GMT -5
Essentially, they show up together to the map, much as now, and each character dictates the actions of their bits. Both myself as Phoenix and Tim as Crab dabbled with doing this, and it wasn't a big deal, just wasn't really encouraged/supported by mechanics.
Up to players to coordinate their actions, not to STs to make them.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 22, 2016 10:19:29 GMT -5
Also, actual MOVEMENT should be a non-issue. Because of the size of Otoson Uchii, actual movement values don't make sense, because most units or individuals could reasonably get from one part of the city to another in a single day. Mapwork would consists of saying "I want to explore XXX district, " and it would be mostly managed in downtime.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 22, 2016 10:25:53 GMT -5
Also, actual MOVEMENT should be a non-issue. Because of the size of Otoson Uchii, actual movement values don't make sense, because most units or individuals could reasonably get from one part of the city to another in a single day. Mapwork would consists of saying "I want to explore XXX district, " and it would be mostly managed in downtime. This raises a good point. Do we actually need map movement or do we need a map of control? If the latter, units can be abstracted and simply recorded on a character sheet; the city is small enough that when it really matters units can get where they need to be for the scene. |
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Post by travislerol on Jun 22, 2016 10:26:22 GMT -5
I think we just don't worry about player movement at all, yeah. Units being moved in the sense of "it defends this area now" probably will have to happen, but between smaller map, fewer units, and a much denser area means a lot less slogging across the map in order to get there six months from now. Generally I'm thinking just "move and done" in most cases. They opt to build a few things, redeploy a few things, and maybe discover something that leads to another adventure.
Random thought: The conceit of imperial court/city might not be exactly the same in this game, right? Genuinely have different clans host, then?
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 22, 2016 10:45:07 GMT -5
Random thought: The conceit of imperial court/city might not be exactly the same in this game, right? Genuinely have different clans host, then? Probably want to start another thread for this, but I can't conceive of any situation in which any clan would host formal court. Why would they? The Imperial court is literally right there. Now individual clans would host events - festivals, dinners, etc. - but the actual court is held in the Imperial Palace; that's what the palace is for. Now a good conceit for the game would be that the palace was destroyed or at least rendered uninhabitable by the earthquake. Actual Imperial court might be held in Kyuden Otomo (which, being in the city, probably didn't fare any better) or Kyuden Seppun (two days' ride from the city, which is more likely). Even more likely the Emperor would go on a rotating court around the Emperor with a Winter Court held by one clan and a summer court held by another. This creates a lot of pressure to get the damn palace rebuilt... unless your one of the clans doing a lot of the hosting. *cough* CRANE *cough* |
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 22, 2016 11:18:44 GMT -5
My thought is that there will be an Imperial host for at least a few months. Either the Miya who's the governer of the Farmer's district at his Rustic (But still fitting of an Imperial Estate), or as you suggested, 2 days out from the city which is close enough for reasonable time shenanigans. As people build up the city, they'll have opportunities to host at whatever establishments they provide.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 22, 2016 11:27:01 GMT -5
My thoughts on the imperial palace though. I would rather the imperial palace be a major goal to reclaim/rebuild. I am thinking big boss fight, lots of units sort of thing, possibly even mass combat. So personally I would rather come up with another idea for a court setting.
Also on troops and movement. I'm not worried about movement at all, that is never actually the real issue. The issue is unit designation in the program with players having their own units. Now I would like to have units moved around specifically for defense of areas or even attacks of areas. Moving them in a similar manner to what we currently do in EH, but of course moving the units back after the battle (if they survived) is totally viable. I'm thinking something along the lines of a standard tactics game where a Unit has a Movement Action + Complex Action + Recovery Action per event. Movement would be for a standard relocation per event, Complex would be for an action that the unit can perform during the event, and a Recovery would be for a surprise movement or withdraw (such as you moved your army to a battlefront and realized you were far outnumbered so you retreat without engaging, or another location is being assaulted by an Oni so you can pull away some units to help defend that area, or you conquered a location and you decide to pull some units back to patrol a different location). That is only an example off the top of my head, but I would prefer handling troops to be more calculated rather than free-form because free-form can cause more issues in the long run, even when managed well, I would prefer the players have a set of rules of what they can and can't do vs them just bidding "hey I want to do X, Y, and Z" which could cause us to waste time deliberating over their actions or having to logically process if what they want to do is even viable. A standard calculated pattern of what they can and can't do is basically a must in a map game king maker.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 22, 2016 11:53:33 GMT -5
Yeah, Im getting wildly off the original topic there, just struck me as interesting. I had assumed that the Imperial area would be something in need of retaking.
It is, mostly, a map of control. I think there's value to having units in discrete positions in a "they normally defend here" sense, but yeah, the map serves a somewhat different function. I would rather not have complex actions on a per-unit basis. That seems...difficult. Sure, spell out the allowed actions, but it needs to be fairly terse, though maybe building certain things would give additional options.
Speaking of, buildings, improvements, things that characters should, by default, be able to make, what sort of items should those be? I'm thinking we have a list of those, and splatter mechanics onto them next. |
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 22, 2016 12:54:26 GMT -5
Speaking of, buildings, improvements, things that characters should, by default, be able to make, what sort of items should those be? I'm thinking we have a list of those, and splatter mechanics onto them next. I'd like a default list but also an invitation to expand beyond it. We should check Emerald Empire for suggestions, but off the top of my head: - Dojo - Barracks - Library - Temple - Forge - Home - Business - Park - Garden - Menagerie - Docks - Warehouse - Monument - Monastery - Guard post/magistrate station - Theater (performance space?) - Shrine - Fortification |
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Post by travislerol on Jun 22, 2016 13:02:53 GMT -5
Browsed around some, only thing I can think of offhand would be fortification and shrine for additional options.
Granted, the distinction between shrine and temple is kind of a fine one, I think. Maybe too detailed for use here?
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 22, 2016 13:12:35 GMT -5
I see a distinction. A temple is actively maintained, a shrine is built and left to its own devices. Regardless, this is just brainstorming so I'll put it on the list.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 24, 2016 18:42:27 GMT -5
The below is designed around what I expect people to be able to buy first session. On average, if fully decked out to get influence (Gentry Aside, because that's a whole lot of math I don't want to do), a starting player will cap out at 3 influence - 2 potential from status, and 1 potential from glory. At game start, you shouldn't see people getting Samurai units without exerting extra effort during game. So either Samurai units need to cost > 5 influence to acquire, or these numbers need to be scaled back (which I don't think is reasonable).
Influence Generation - Charles' Suggestion
For each District of Otoson Uchii your clan controls, each member of your clan gains 1 influence. At game start, no clan will fully control a single district.
You gain 1 point of influence for each point of status you have. For most PC's, this will be 1 influence at game start.
You gain additional influence for land owned outside of Otoson Uchii, as per the Gentry advantage. Influence gains from Gentry are as follows. If these advantages are shared with other PC's, the influence will be split evenly between all parties.
Holding (Cost)
Village - 1 Influence
Large Village - 2 Influence
Unique Holding - 3 Influence
Town (20 points) - 4 Influence
City (25 points) - 5 influence
Province (30 points) - 6 Influence
Glory - You gain an additional amount of influence based on your permanent glory score. This model should allow someone who begins at rank 1 with the FAME advantage to begin with an additional influence, but pretty much anyone else will start at 0 additional.
1 : You are a relative unknown, and do not generate any additional influence.
2-4 : 1 Influence
5-7 : 2 Influence
8-10: 3 Influence
Honor - At the end of each session, any influence acquired in excess of your (perceived) honor is lost.
Clan Neutral Units
Peasant Builders
Cost - 1 Influence
Upkeep - 2 Koku
Peasant Builders can perform the following actions.
BUILD - Peasant builders can build structures.
CLEAR DEBRIS - Peasant builders can clear a hex of debris, allowing it to be properly explored.
RUSHED BUILD - By expending the unit, peasant builders can build a structure in half the allotted time.
Peasant Administrator
Cost - 1 Influence
Upkeep - 2 Koku
Peasant Administrators can administer non-military or Samurai-Unique structures, such as tea-houses, geisha-houses, etc. No administration roll is required for that structure, so long as the upkeep for the Administrator is paid.
Ashigaru
Cost - 2 Influence
Upkeep - 2 Koku
Military Strength - 50
Ashigaru can participate in military engagements, as well as clear debris.
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