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Post by travislerol on Jun 24, 2016 11:43:28 GMT -5
Aright, let's start nominating advantages, disadvantages for a compiled banlist. In addition, I'd like to see some suggestions for custom advantages/disadvantages to replace them that are thematically/mechanically connected to the themes and plot of this game, so the overall selection stays similar.
First nominee: Dark Fate Why? Because it's baaasically an awesome advantage that you also get points for. It's also sufficiently good that even if it COST points, I'd want to select it on essentially every character ever. A lot of stuff can be balanced by limiting choices or changing numbers, but this is a hard one.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 24, 2016 13:39:32 GMT -5
A general note on advantages/disadvantages - I'm a big advocate of not paying XP to add or remove them once the game starts. Pretty much every one of these advantages/disadvantages can be acquired or removed through RP, and it doesn't make sense that people need to spend XP on them after character creation - the following list is created with the assumption that after creation, advantages will be acquired without the expenditure of XP. As an aside - I fell the same way for Shugenja Scrolls. But that's a topic for another day.
Disadvantages
Bitter Betrothal [Social] (2 Points) - Restrict
Easy points for a disadvantage that's difficult to arbitrate - even if it's restricted to other PC's. I feel as if a pretty strong story and a thoroughly developed relationship with the spouse should be provided before allowing this flaw. I also think it's best that if it's acquired in game.
Dark Fate [Spiritual] (3 Points)
I'm kinda with you there on this one, Travis. I would suggest just leaving it at is - but the moment someone uses the ability to survive an encounter, set the Dark Fate in motion. Drop whatever we decide is appropriate for the character as a plot the next session, and escalate it at any time they use the ability again. The trick to making this worth the points is being creative about it - and I think that's all that's required to balance it. We just have to be on top of making survival less appealing than an honorable death.
Disturbing Countenance [Physical] (3 Points) Something about your appearance causes others to respond to you with concern and caution. You are not nec nessarily unattractive, merely disturbing in some way. The TN of all your Social Skill Rolls is increased by +5. This Disadvantage is worth 4 points to Spider characters.
Not restricted, but should be reflected in costuming.
Enlightened Madness [Spiritual] - Restrict (4/6 Points)
Erm... so. I really like this. While I don't like forcing people out of game - they don't have to take this disadvantage if they don't want to be put in that position. I say we keep it as is, but restrict it - if only so people understand that it could cut out of their game session time.
Haunted [Spiritual] (3 Points) Restrict
Just because it's hard to arbitrate. I'd suggest having players with this disad wear a gray sash so that when it's appropriate to trigger this disadvantage, an ST will be immediately aware. For people who can see spirits, it also lets them know there is something that can be interacted with.
Lord Moon's Curse [Spiritual] (3/5/7 Points) Restrict (at the very least)
Sort of in the same place as with enlightened Madness - except we'd have to be on top of making sure there are times when this disad comes into play... given the relative rarity of a full moon, I'm not sure it should be allowed at all.
Rumormonger [Social] (4 Points) Restrict
Again, this is a matter of arbitration. How do we monitor it to make sure it's actually being used as a disadvantage to the character and contributing to the narrative?
Sworn Enemy [Social]Restrict (3 Points)
If taken for anything other than a PC, this will require us to create an NPC and background for it. Doable, but we'll want to make sure it's worth the effort.
Unlucky [Spiritual] (2 Points per Rank) Restrict
Wear a brown sash to indicate this, and it eliminates the arbitration problem.
Weakness [Physical] (6 Points)
In EH, this is a great flaw to take given the value of Traits in this system. I don't want to restrict it, but want to emphasize that it's cost needs to decrease if the value of traits is not going to be addressed.
Wrath of the Kami [Spiritual] (3 Points)
Emphasize 'spells cast against you' and this should be fine. I've heard many arguments that this could apply to friendly spells such as healing and buffs. No thank you.
Gentry [Material] (Variable)
Needs to be addressed, but doesn't need to be restricted. People with this should generate additional influence.
Higher Purpose [Mental] (3 Points) Restrict or Ban There is some greater purpose to which you have devoted your life. This is not a simple matter, but some grand work that will take years or perhaps even the whole of your life to accomplish. Whatever this goal is, during any session in which you and the GM agree you have made demonstrable progress toward it, you gain one additional Experience Point.
Requires significant monitoring. I think it may be easier to just ban it outright, but my general philosophy is to allow as much as possible. .
Kharmic Tie [Spiritual] (1-5 Points) Restrict Your destiny is not yours alone, but is bonded to that of another in some fundamental way. You may have been close to this other person during a previous life, or perhaps your destiny in this life will yet be entwined in theirs in some essential manner. Select one person when purchasing this Advantage. For each point spent on this Advantage, once per session you gain a bonus of +1k1 to the total of all attack rolls made when fighting for or protecting the person to whom you are bonded.
I'd prefer if this were done with a PC.
**Read Lips [Mental] (4 Points)*8 Ban Either through natural ability or incredible patience and practice, you have the ability to understand what others are saying even if you cannot hear them, simply by observing how their lips move. When you are in a situation where others are speaking and you cannot hear them, you can understand what they are saying by making a Perception Trait Roll against TN 15 + 5 for every twenty feet away from you the speakers are. Courtier characters may purchase this Advantage for 3 points.
Near impossible to arbitrate, especially, in PVP situations.
Way of the Land [Mental] (2 Points) Restrict
It should only ever be relevant to Otoson Uchii, and therefore, barring a background that revolves around being in or around the city all the time, should be restricted to 'figure it out in game'.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 24, 2016 14:07:12 GMT -5
Dark Fate is something you put on NPCs you need to be recurring NPCs. I don't believe that it was ever intended for PCs.
Beyond that, here are my thoughts. I prefer five levels: allowed, lightly restricted, heavily restricted, banned, and mod. Allowed and banned are obvious. Lightly restricted is something we would allow but want to see justification for or need to talk about how it would be implemented. Heavily restricted is something that we won't allow without extensively vetting the player and/or character. Mod is something that we'd allow but it should work differently than written. Generally I'm against things that require us to actively adjudicate them or play NPCs (i.e. sworn enemy, haunted, lord moon's curse, etc.). I would again suggest the bonus XP for players that suffer a negative effect from their disadvantage during play, as that both prompts them to remember their own disadvantages for us and gives players incentives to choose disadvantages that come up often rather than trying to dodge their disadvantages.
Advantages Absolute Direction - Allow Allies - Light Balance - Allow Blackmail - Light Bland - Allow Blissful Betrothal - Light Blood of Osano-Wo - Allow Chosen by the Oracles - Allow Clear Thinker - Allow Crab Hands - Allow Craft - Allow Dangerous Beauty - Allow Daredevil - Allow Dark Paragon - Ban in some time lines, allow in others Darling of the Court - Heavy Different School - Light Elemental Blessing - Allow Enlightened - Allow Fame - Allow Forbidden Knowledge - Heavy Friendly Kam- Allow Friend of the Brotherhood - Heavy (note: kiho in general should be heavily restricted) Friend of the Elements - Allow Gaijin Gear - Light Gentry - Light Great Destiny - Ban Great Potential - Heavy Hands of Stone - Allow Heart of Vengeance - Allow Heartless - Allow Hero of the People - Allow Higher Purpose - Ban Imperial Scribe - Heavy Imperial Spouse - Heavy Inari's Blessing - Allow Inheritance - Light (depends on inheritance) Inner Gift - Light (depends on gift) Irreproachable - Allow Ishiken-do - Light Kharmic Tie - Light Languages - Allow Large - Allow Leadership - Allow Luck - Allow Magic Resistance - Allow Multiple Schools - Heavy Paragon - Allow Perceived Honor - Allow Precise Memory - Allow Prodigy - Allow Quick - Allow Quick Healer - Allow Read Lips - Allow Sacred Weapon - Allow Sacrosanct - Heavy Sage - Allow Sensation - Allow Servant - Light (depends on servant) Seven Fortune's Blessing - Allow Shadowed Heart - Allow Silent - Allow Social Position - Heavy Soul of Artistry - Allow Strength of the Earth - Allow Tactician - Allow Touch of the Spirit Realms - Allow Virtuous - Allow Voice - Allow Void Versatility - Allow Wary - Allow Way of the Land - Mod (specify what size of area. Recommend we make it specific districts within Otosan Uchi for this game) Wealthy - Allow
Disadvantages Anti-Social - Allow Ascetic - Allow Bad Eyesight - Allow Bad Fortune - Allow Bad Health - Allow Bitter Betrothal - Heavy (this is a lot of work for us to adjudicate) Blackmailed - Mod (may only be taken if another PC gets the blackmail. You don't get to know who) Black Sheep - Heavy (very hard disadvantage to run in a single-location game) Blind - Allow Brash - Allow Can't Lie - Allow Cast Out - Allow Compulsion - Allow Consumed - Ban in some timelines, allow in others Contrary - Allow Cursed by the Realm - Allow Dark Fate - Ban Dark Secret - Heavy Dependent - Heavy Dishonored - Allow Disbeliever - Allow Disturbing Countenance - Allow (costume requirement) Doubt - Allow Driven - Allow Elemental Imbalance - Allow Enlightened Madness - Heavy (lot of work for us to adjudicate) Epilepsy - Allow Fascination - Allow Failure of Bushido - Allow Forced Retirement - Allow Frail Mind - Allow Gaijin Name - Allow Greedy - Allow Gullible - Allow Haunted - Heavy Hostage - Allow (but warn players that if their clans go to war their character will be executed Idealistic - Allow Infamous - Allow Insensitive - allow Jealousy - Allow Lame - Allow Lechery - Allow (warning to players that this disadvantage is not an excuse to make other players uncomfortable) Jealousy - Allow Lord Moon's Curse - Heavy Lost Love - Allow Low Pain Threshold - Allow Missing Limb - Allow Momoku - Allow (mod for more points?) Obligation - Allow (another PC holds the obligation) Obtuse - Allow Overconfident - Allow Permanent Wound - Allow Phobia - Allow Rumormonger - Allow Seven Fortune's Curse - Allow Shadowlands Taint - Allow Small - Allow Social Disadvantage - Allow Soft-Hearted - Allow Sworn Enemy - Allow (publish list of local NPCs and the points they're worth) Touch of the Void - Ban (this is almost an advantage) True Love - Allow (other PCs only) Unlucky - Allow Weakness - Allow Wrath of the Kami - Allow
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 24, 2016 14:28:56 GMT -5
The more I think about Dark Fate, the more Kolat Sleeper agents come to mind. I think we have a clear way to make it a relevant and terrifying disadvantage in this game. I'm going to vote on not banning it.
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 24, 2016 14:36:53 GMT -5
In that case I'm going to quote my own campaign bible from another game I ran:
Dark Fate - Unlike many other games, this Disadvantage is permitted. Go ahead. Take it. We dare you. Enjoy your three points.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 24, 2016 15:07:29 GMT -5
Hah. With that verbiage, and given the excellent reasoning given by Charles...okay. I'll swap my stance on that one. Freely allow with a sinister grin.
I would generally like to have as short of a restrict list as possible. IMO, a slow char creation process with a great deal of back and forth is often frustrating for both the PC and the ST. Changing, replacing, etc is highly preferred.
Lord Moon's Curse is a good candidate for a ban/change. It's one of those where if it comes up, it can be well, not terribly fun for the player. Things like that, I'm inclined to look at how we should change or replace them with something somewhat easier to run.
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Post by Charles ST on Jun 24, 2016 15:20:59 GMT -5
Dark Fate - PC's will be afforded a grace period determined by the ST staff to enjoy their character before the possibility of your dark fate triggering. If the effect of this disadvantage is used (I.E. if you take enough wounds to be dead, and survive via dark fate), that grace period is forfeited. After the grace period, the ST staff may at any collect the debt of your dark fate, which will almost certainly result in your PC's death or retirement to an NPC. Take this disadvantage at your own risk, and know that all can fall to darkness, even at their highest moment. Lord Moon's Curse - PointsAt end of each session, you must make a willpower draw = 15 + an additional number based on the current phase of the moon. If this draw is failed, you lose a simple downtime action for that session, and your character will have no recollection of what came to pass during that time. New Moon + 0 Waxing Crescent + 5 1st Quarter + 10 Waxing Gibbous + 15 Full Moon + 20 Waning Gibbous + 15 3rd Quarter + 10 Waning Crescent + 5
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Post by travislerol on Jun 24, 2016 15:24:02 GMT -5
I don't know that I want to base it on what it is at time of game...it is likely that we'll have some pattern where it'll be "third weekend" or something every weekend for a while. Given that it's a downtime action, and a full moon will happen every month, would a static DC suffice to see if they were strong enough that month?
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Post by Alex ST on Jun 24, 2016 16:17:03 GMT -5
1) I love that way of running Dark Fate. Players can't say they weren't warned.
2) I agree with Travis re: as short a list as possible.
3) Not sure how I feel about this version of Lord Moon's Madness. It makes sense and it's definitely an elegant solution but I'm never a big fan of things that make you lose actions - it's a go-to with most first editions of games and second editions usually take them our or reduce them in favor of more creative penalties - since not doing something just isn't fun; it's boring for the players and it's boring for the STs. Is this Disadvantage that important, anyway? I've never met a player that's wanted it.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 24, 2016 16:22:19 GMT -5
It got used once in EH(on a character who was specifically designed to not ever fail that roll). It's not super popular, but again...it's a lost action thingie. Not playing your char is usually not a lot of fun.
Making it happen during downtime instead of at-game time is a big improvement, I think. Fairly modest loss. I would modify it to also include "You may see rumors on the rumor sheet regarding what your character has done in the meantime". That gets you something to actually get other PCs involved with it.
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Post by Resler ST on Jun 24, 2016 16:48:14 GMT -5
I just want to throw a few cents in. From a player side I don't like the concept of restricted advantages. Either ban it or don't, no in between. We don't need to audit everyone's sheets. It takes up too much time for us and takes up too much time for them to write up backstory to cater to our mindsets so that we approve of it. The amount of time it took for me to get Mukashi approved was ludicrous. I wrote up a 10 page short story for crying out loud. If we want to lessen our head aches and have things flow more freely, honestly it's just much simpler to make only two lists, Approved and Banned.
Also what I'm thinking about is just compiling an entire LARP book, similar to what EH has, but only put approved mechanics inside of it and expand greatly on wording compared to theirs. If it's not in the book it's banned or does not apply to our game. This makes a lot of scenarios simpler and easier to handle. A new player only has to find one source book. A current player only has to interpret the rules out of one source. No one has to cross reference. We can print several copies for the game and bind them so that not only we can use them but players can read through them at game, if they have any questions.
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Post by travislerol on Jun 24, 2016 16:50:07 GMT -5
Also, no ten page backstories, just saying. =)
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 5, 2016 23:06:03 GMT -5
The more I think about Dark Fate, the more Kolat Sleeper agents come to mind. I think we have a clear way to make it a relevant and terrifying disadvantage in this game. I'm going to vote on not banning it. What we allow the players should not in an way be restricted for our NPCs. If it helps with a story, let an NPC have a banned advantage or disadvantage. The point of banning something is for game balance, conserve ST time/energy, and ensure consistent role-play of trait by players. None of those apply to an NPC ran by an ST
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Post by timcoltharp on Jul 5, 2016 23:18:25 GMT -5
I just want to throw a few cents in. From a player side I don't like the concept of restricted advantages. Either ban it or don't, no in between. We don't need to audit everyone's sheets. It takes up too much time for us and takes up too much time for them to write up backstory to cater to our mindsets so that we approve of it. The amount of time it took for me to get Mukashi approved was ludicrous. I wrote up a 10 page short story for crying out loud. If we want to lessen our head aches and have things flow more freely, honestly it's just much simpler to make only two lists, Approved and Banned. Also what I'm thinking about is just compiling an entire LARP book, similar to what EH has, but only put approved mechanics inside of it and expand greatly on wording compared to theirs. If it's not in the book it's banned or does not apply to our game. This makes a lot of scenarios simpler and easier to handle. A new player only has to find one source book. A current player only has to interpret the rules out of one source. No one has to cross reference. We can print several copies for the game and bind them so that not only we can use them but players can read through them at game, if they have any questions. From an ST point of view, the reason we restrict stuff as an ST is because we know something can be cool in the hands a good roleplayer, but cheezy in the hands of bad roleplayer. The hoops you sometimes jump through is to help signal you are the former camp. That said, the current LARP has been a more than a little ridiculous in the hoops they demand. If an ST can not give you a path to acquiring said restricted stuff with one month of thinking about it, or the ST can no agree on something fairly quickly then a simple ban/allowed list is better. My two cents on this is that if we have a restricted list then the qualifications should be delegated to one decisive ST to decide, and that that players should be informed that restricted traits are contingent on game balance and fun.
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Post by travislerol on Jul 6, 2016 14:25:03 GMT -5
While I agree with you regarding the hoops of the latter(Tamori took a month and a half to get approval, and the restrictions were...ludicrous. He was not initially supposed to be a combatant at all, but a focused guru/weaponsmith. I was literally given a choice of two allowed advantages, both of which were stabby, so...he was stabby then. And the STs grumbled about me playing a stabby char. But...I digress).
Anywhere, the weakness of using a restricted list to sort out "good RPers" from "bad RPers" is that it's inherently a bit discouraging to the latter. And mechanical munchkinry is an ability that is mostly divorced from the ability to RP, write backgrounds, or whatever hoop is presented. Some people dislike writing fictions, but will RP amazingly. In general, I think it makes a poor filter for this purpose.
I also think that restricting to limit number of people with x in a game has potential issues. Yeah, you want diversity, but being denied an option only because others got it first, and this means they'll clearly always be better than you at that is...discouraging.
A lot of players bleed off from a game in trying to create a second character.
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